Torture is Wrong
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24 April 2009
From Borneo
The British Army runs various jungle training courses in the friendly country of Brunei, on Borneo Island. I am with a British Army Gurkha battalion and am going through 21 days of combat tracking training at one of the best tracking schools in the world. Most of the students and all of the instructors are combat veterans. Very good group to be with. There are Dutch, British and Gurkha students. This course is about combat, so it’s doggone clear that the Dutch are serious about fighting in Afghanistan. Nobody would need this course unless they were planning on tracking down bad guys. (Part of the training deals with preparation for Afghanistan.) Obviously the Brits/Gurkhas are serious about Afghanistan, so no more needs to be said on that.
We are very busy with the tracking training, so I've got just short periods at a time to write. It's refreshingly hot and humid in Borneo. Sweat is the scent of the day. Last couple of days was all jungle time and had one good overnight in the jungle so far. The jungle is very nice here, not like some jungles I’ve seen. Only a few mosquitoes, for instance, but some other jungles are like mosquito farms.
But I am trying to also track on the mushrooming torture issue. This sad issue is damaging our great country. I've written extensively on the issue but actually published very little. Joe Galloway has something out again today. Looks like Joe is polishing up his bat to start punishing the Obama crowd. Many of us remember that Joe treated the Bush bunch like baby seals.I've got to get back to the training. Can't keep the British Army waiting. Meanwhile, please see this column by the one and only, Joe Galloway:
Commentary: Obama and D.C. dance the torture minuet
By Joseph L. Galloway | McClatchy NewspapersThere they go again, those folks in Washington, D.C. Everyone wants the power; nobody wants the responsibility.
We're back to the question of which Bush administration officials ordered Justice Department lawyers to concoct some legal way to use illegal torture methods on the prisoners we were taking in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq and elsewhere.
It appears that no one in power or recently out of power wants to know the answer to that question.
The Republicans in Congress, who resemble nothing so much as a dwindling flock of whooping cranes, have been nothing but surly since last November. Now they’re threatening to get nasty if the Democrats across the aisle insist on unearthing the truth - the who, what, when, where and why - about the torture question.
(Spare me your e-mails about how waterboarding isn't torture; even John McCain, who knows more about torture than you do, agrees that it is.)
President Barack Obama doesn't want or need this issue sucking all the oxygen out of the Congress and his ambitious agenda, and he just wishes it would go away. His position, if you can call it that, changes daily, if not hourly. He and his people look and sound like a hokey-pokey line on the issue.
The problem is that they're all thinking and acting like politicians, and there's nothing in this issue for any of them except an opportunity to do the right thing. Whoever won an election by doing the right thing? Talking about doing the right thing is another matter.
Torture, however, isn't a political problem, but a legal and moral problem, and therein lies the painful rub.
The new president and his administration released a few of the Top Secret memos that show how and why the lawyers in the Bush Justice Department's Office of Legal Counsel (OLC) went to work turning criminal acts into just another day at the office for CIA and military interrogation officials.
Then, however, the president hurried out to McLean, Va. to assure CIA employees that none of them will ever face prosecution for just following orders and using methods that they thought were legal - even though one of his first acts as chief executive was to halt the use of torture and order the closing of Guantanamo prison.
Next, the Senate Armed Services Committee, chaired by Sen. Carl Levin of Michigan, released a long-delayed timeline of how the torture issue wended its way from the highest offices in the land to the OLC and across the Potomac to the Pentagon and CIA headquarters and down to cells in Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib and rent-a-dungeons hidden away around the world.
In the process, we learned that one high-ranking al Qaida prisoner was subjected to waterboarding, a barbaric tool in the torturer's kit that involves suffocation and near-drowning, not one time for 20 seconds, as reported earlier, but 83 times. Khalid Sheikh Mohamed got the same treatment 183 times, or an average of six times a day.
The new director of national intelligence, Navy Adm. Dennis Blair, said that some useful information was squeezed out of the torture chambers, but he isn't certain that this information couldn't have been gained without resorting to techniques borrowed from the Spanish Inquisition.
Former Bush administration luminaries, beginning with former Vice President Darth Cheney and proceeding down the chain, hasten to declare that torturing those people made America safe, or safer than it was on 9/11, when they were all ignoring a CIA warning that Osama bin Laden was "determined to strike in U.S.."
Even if you believe that the end justifies the means and ignore the numerous factual flaws in this ex post facto defense, it doesn't address the question of how many of the 4,954 American troops who’ve been killed to date in Afghanistan and Iraq were killed by Islamic jihadists who were recruited in part by the revelations that we were torturing helpless Muslims. How much safer did those orders to torture make our young men and women?
The plain fact is that waterboarding is illegal under U.S. law. It's illegal under international laws and treaties that we helped negotiate, we approved and we adhered to until President Bush and his men and women decided that we wouldn't.
Sen. Patrick Leahy of Vermont has revived his proposal for a bipartisan Truth Commission to investigate the well-known and less well-known authors of this legal and moral outrage. If the Republicans continue to refuse to participate, as they have so far, he says, then he's prepared to launch a congressional investigation.
What's truly disheartening is to watch all the ducking, bobbing and weaving in the nation's capital - like so many powder-haired dandies prancing a minuet.
Yes, it's an ugly chapter in the life of a nation that prides itself on its freedoms and its rule of law. But it's more than that: It's a splendid opportunity for a bunch of politicians from both parties to find their spines, or borrow some, and get to work cleaning out the dark corners in the White House and emptying the closets of skeletons.
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Comments
This event was over a 5,000 dollar grain deal, not stopping another 911.
Everyone keeps on saying the water boarding "may" have saved lives and then dedicate a whole story to that statement. How about this, can you prove it didn't save lives? You and Michael both, whom I have a tremendous amount of respect for, need to realize sometimes, sometimes torture is necessary!
Even if you continue to disagree, you cannot disagree with the fact that this is no longer about humane treatment or law, this is about crush them and this is one club to use! This is now become a publicity tool tool, a PR campaign, so which is more scary? You figure out who the "them" is!
With all due respect, would these "HELPLESS MUSLIMS" be those that killed 3,025 American and foreign CIVILIANS on 9/11? Would these be the "HELPLESS MUSLIMS" that attacked the U.S.S. Cole killing 17 Navy service members or the "HELPLESS MUSLIMS" that bombed the Marine Barracks in Beirut killing 242 American Marines? All of these events occurred before any waterboarding.
Take a look at the Significant Terrorist Incidents, 1961-2003: A Brief Chronology, at the U.S Department of State web site (http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/pubs/fs/5902.htm). Now tell me that waterboarding senior Al-Qaeda leaders is going to make America less safe from their radical agenda? From the Munich Olympic Massacre in 1972 to the Mumbai, India attack just last November, 2008, there is not another group more violent, without provocation, than Islamic jihadists. They don't need an excuse for recruitment and their not going to stop until they are killed.
These are terrorists and radical fundamentalists that care nothing of their own lives and only of imposing their beliefs on all non-believers. They don't waterboard prisoners, they cut off their heads or burn them alive. Just this week Pakistan is finally learning appeasement does not work. When will the World (and President Obama) learn from history. Talking to Hitler did not stop him, but killing him did. Talking to Saddam Hussein did not stop him, but killing him did. Talking to Kim Jong-il of North Korea will not stop him and talking to Mahmoud Ahmadinejad of Iran will not stop him either.
I do not support killing a prisoner. But if we have to make a guy think he is going to suffocate or drown 1,000 times to save American lives, then show me where the hose is? Bottom line is the United States has not been struck again since 9/11 and we have taken the fight to the enemy on their turf.
You say "spare me your e-mails about how waterboarding isn't torture; even John McCain, who knows more about torture than you do, agrees that it is." Well guess what, there's more than one reason Sen. John McCain lost his presidential bid. I don't care if you call waterboarding torture or not. More Americans support the practice when necessary than oppose it. The "rule of law" is a wonderful thing in a civilized world. Unfortunately, the entire world is not civilized.
Tim
In this article Galloway both strokes Obama as the One Who Can Do No Wrong and decries how he has not made a decision on this subject, while ignoring the decision that was made.
Face the first fact: This adminstration has No Clue how to deal with the goings on at any level right now. The things that it takes credit for (ie-handling of pirates) were done IN SPITE of the lack of decisiveness of this CiC.
As long as the tortue issue is waving around, point towards the previous administration, then the complete incompetence of the current administration can be ignored a while longer
Mr Galloway, congratulations on being the patsy that Mr Obama needs to keep our attention elsewhere.
Go to hell, Joseph Galloway and others who continue to blame the United States!
How come so many of you like Galloway forget about all the innocents slaughtered for the past decades by "helpless Muslims"?
I don't know where your hearts and minds were after 9/11, but I'll bet there were moments you wanted those "helpless Muslims" who slaugthered more than 3,000 innocent Americans in about an hour to pay for what they did, huh?
Leave a man locked in his cell with bright lights and music playing night and day is also torture.
I am sure that some would consider a diet of bread and water to be torture.
The whole idea of interrogation is to get answers. If some forms of torture are used to get answers but the prisoner retains all body parts without damage, maybe that is not really torture, regardless of what John McCain thinks.
Now you've become one of the editorialists, like those in virtually all other news media, who embellish their stories with emotional and subjective opinions on the righteousness of war. War is not righteous, Mr Yon. It isn't a scene in Technicolor or shades of gray. It is starkly black and white. You either kill or you are killed. You either defend yourself and your fellow soldiers by whatever means are necessary or you, your fellow soldiers, and in this case large numbers of innocent civilians as well, will be killed. You kill them there or they will kill us here. You've previously acknowledged that, but now you want to place the same kind of tactical and strategic limits on our combatants as doomed us to defeat and tragedy in Viet Nam. "Don't waterboard to gain information" is no different from "don't bomb Hanoi". What else would you remove from our arsenal? Cluster bombs? What else?
It's a death spiral, Mr Yon, and once you step on that slope there is no turning back. You have begun to erode our military's capacity to defend itself and us, my wife and my children. I promise you, if I were faced with the choice between morality and having my children die, there would be no limits, NONE, on what I would do to prevent that happening.
I will remind you of something else. You have the luxury of being where you want, when you want. Soldiers don't. You also have the luxury of not forming the special emotional bonds that become an integral and necessary part of any military unit and its effectiveness in battle. I speak of the bond that can lead a soldier to unhesitatingly give his life for his fellow soldiers, who will throw himself on a grenade knowing he will die as a result, but does so willingly to protect his friends. Why would you possibly think that same soldier should treat the enemy who threw that grenade and will most certainly throw others with some greater regard for his welfare than he would allow for himself?
Your reporting has been excellent, but you have corrupted that with editorial. You have shaded one with the other and have lost my trust.
Now you've become one of the editorialists, like those in virtually all other news media, who embellish their stories with emotional and subjective opinions on the righteousness of war. War is not righteous, Mr Yon. It isn't a scene in Technicolor or shades of gray. It is starkly black and white. You either kill or you are killed. You either defend yourself and your fellow soldiers by whatever means are necessary or you, your fellow soldiers, and in this case large numbers of innocent civilians as well, will be killed. You kill them there or they will kill us here. You've previously acknowledged that, but now you want to place the same kind of tactical and strategic limits on our combatants as doomed us to defeat and tragedy in Viet Nam. "Don't waterboard to gain information" is no different from "don't bomb Hanoi". What else would you remove from our arsenal? Cluster bombs? What else?
It's a death spiral, Mr Yon, and once you step on that slope there is no turning back. You have begun to erode our military's capacity to defend itself and us, my wife and my children. I promise you, if I were faced with the choice between morality and having my children die, there would be no limits, NONE, on what I would do to prevent that happening.
I will remind you of something else. You have the luxury of being where you want, when you want. Soldiers don't You also have the luxury of not forming the special emotional bonds that become an integral and necessary part of any military unit and its effectiveness in battle. I speak of the bond that can lead a soldier to unhesitatingly give his life for his fellow soldiers, who will throw himself on a grenade knowing he will die as a result, but does so willingly to protect his friends. Why would you possibly think that same soldier should treat the enemy who threw that grenade and will most certainly throw others with some greater regard for his welfare than he would allow for himself?
Your reporting has been excellent, but you have corrupted that with editorial. You have shaded one with the other and have lost my trust.
Which brings me to why I'm posting again. Have you heard about the tape snuck out of the UAE showing Mohammed Zayed al Nahyan, the brother of the country's crown prince Sheikh Mohammed? In case you haven't, here's a little tidbit for you:
"The Sheikh begins by stuffing sand down the man's mouth, as the police officers restrains the victim. Then he fires bullets from an automatic rifle around him as the man howls incomprehensibl y. At another point on the tape, the Sheikh can be seen telling the cameraman to come closer. "Get closer. Get closer. Get closer. Let his suffering show," the Sheikh says. Over the course of the tape, Sheikh Issa acts in an increasingly sadistic manner. He uses an electric cattle prod against the man's testicles and inserts it in his anus. At another point, as the man wails in pain, the Sheikh pours lighter fluid on the man's testicles and sets them aflame. Then the tape shows the Sheikh sorting through some wooden planks. "I remember there was one that had a nail in it," he says on the tape. The Sheikh then pulls down the pants of the victim and repeatedly strikes him with board and its protruding nail. At one point, he puts the nail next to the man's buttocks and bangs it through the flesh. "Where's the salt," asks the Sheikh as he pours a large container of salt on to the man's bleeding wounds. The victim pleads for mercy, to no avail. The final scene on the tape shows the Sheikh positioning his victim on the desert sand and then driving over him repeatedly. A sound of breaking bones can be heard on the tape."
Sheikh Issa's lawyer, Daryl Bristow of Baker Botts in Houston, told ABC News "the tape is the tape." The torture victim was identified by Nabulsi as an Afghan grain dealer, Mohammed Shah Poor, who the Sheikh accused of short changing on a grain delivery to his royal ranch on the outskirts of Abu Dhabi. The UAE government, in its statement, says the matter was settled privately between the Sheikh and the grain dealer, "by agreeing not to bring formal charges against each other, i.e., theft on the one hand and assault on the other hand."
Those "helpless Muslims" you refer to could be lying. Why should we believe a terrorist over an American soldier, or for that matter, an American president? Whether we have "tortured" or not, terrorists have used and will continue to use that propoganda as a recruiting tool. I will never blame the previous administration for doing what it thought was right under difficult circumstances. I guess Monday morning quarterbacks have nothing better to do.
It's a death spiral, Mr Yon, and once you step on that slope there is no turning back. You have begun to erode our military's capacity to defend itself and us, my wife and my children. I promise you, if I were faced with the choice between morality and having my children die, there would be no limits, NONE, on what I would do to prevent that happening. I will remind you of something else. You have the luxury of being where you want, when you want. Soldiers don't. You also have the luxury of not forming the special emotional bonds that become an integral and necessary part of any military unit and its effectiveness in battle. I speak of the bond that can lead a soldier to unhesitatingly give his life for his fellow soldiers, who will throw himself on a grenade knowing he will die as a result, but does so willingly to protect his friends. Why would you possibly think that same soldier should treat the enemy who threw that grenade and will most certainly throw others with some greater regard for his welfare than he would allow for himself?
Your reporting has been excellent, but you have now corrupted it with editorial. You have shaded one with the other and have thus lost credibility.
And further, what about all those innocents who die at the hands of the so-called "helpless Muslims". Who will speak for them? They have to live among beheaders, not waterboarders.
Time for the other side of the coinƒ??ƒ?? first I would like you to think that another country has just torture your mother, father, brother, sister or even you for the last 3 weeks. Would you HATE the people that did that? Honest answers please!
If the other country tortured someone from your church for 3 weeks because they thought he or she was a terrorist would you have HATE for them? Honest answers please!
If your father got water boarded for 3 weeksƒ??.would you want to kill the people that did it? Honest answers please!
Your discussion of water boarding /torture is not an American topic only, really the rest of the world is reading about America and our torture. At some point you need to wonder what does everyone else in the world think about the US. You can split hairs what is or what is not torture but can you make the rest of the world buy the BSƒ??. NO!
The rest of the world have been seeing their fellow church member, brother or father being tortured by American hands so do you think that makes them HATE America? Honest answers please!
Short term you torture and stop an attack that saves 5,000 lives.
Long term you torture and you cause a whole new group to HATE you and go to war with you and in the long term that group takes a total of 10,000 lives.
What was really learned for all of the torture, not sure? What could we have learned by not doing torture, not sure? If we were not torturing people would more people have been willing to gives us more information, not sure?
Would you kill the person or people that torture your familyƒ?? Oh we just water boarded them 50 times thatƒ??s OKƒ??..because we said so.
"Even if you believe that the end justifies the means... how many of the 4,954 American troops whoƒ??ve been killed to date in Afghanistan and Iraq were killed by Islamic jihadists who were recruited in part by the revelations that we were torturing helpless Muslims."
He takes the liberty to gloss over the fact that information obtained Khalid Sheikh Mohamed has prevented 2,974 fatalities of innocent American civilians. Only to suggest that, perhaps, the report of "torturing helpless Muslims" increased American troop casualties?! Let's inflate the percentage of those casualties to 10 percent of troop casualties, that would be 495 troop casualties. I can say with some certainty that those soldiers would gladly give their lives again for such returns for their sacrifice.
Also ignored is the probability that among the Muslim population being recruited for jihad that there was a belief that "helpless Muslims" were being tortured long before people like Galloway were accusing the US of torturing. Or did they have a cheerful picture of the US? Correct me if I am wrong!
"Khalid Sheikh Mohamed got the same treatment 183 times, or an average of six times a day.... Navy Adm. Dennis Blair... isn't certain that this information couldn't have been gained without resorting to techniques borrowed from the Spanish Inquisition."
Intellectually DISHONEST! So Khalid Sheikh Mohamed was waterboarded 183 times? Was that because he wouldn't divulge his information the first time he was waterboarded or was the CIA just having fun at his expense? Let's assume he was waterboarded more because he still wouldn't talk after the first couple treatments. Are you asking me to believe that a man who wouldn't divulge his information for 10, 20, 30, maybe even the first 40 times he faced simulated drowning (the absolute worst we could throw at him), are you asking me to believe there might have been another, gentler way to get this information?! Really? Six times in the first day would no doubt cause all but the absolutely most committed men to sing like a cannery but KSM required days and days of this and you want me to believe something else would have worked?!!!
While the tanks were rolling through Bagdad Muhammed Saeed al-Sahaf (Baghdad Bob) says, "no American troops are in Baghdad, and the Americans are committing suicide by the hundreds at the city's gates." we call this PROPAGANDA. Why? Because we all know it was intellectually DISHONEST. Well Mr. Galloway look over your shoulder the tanks are right there!
Again Mr. Galloway, please correct me if my logic is faulty.
The original damage, caused by the release of the memo, is done. Now, whether you consider the methods outlined in the memos as torture or not, it is clear that the decision to go forward with those methods was not taken lightly. Also, the enhanced interrogation was from 2002-03 - quite a while ago - in the more immediate aftermath of 9/11. It was a different time.
The issue was dead. Obama could have shown his brilliance by adopting a new tactic that works much better than the old. Instead, he is focussed on the past, not the future, and seems intent on punishing people who were trying to do their best to protect the country.
What's next? Should we reopen every Afghan and Iraq military strike that killed a civilian? Those accidental deaths contributed to Al Queada recrutiment, too!
The current debate is not helpful and it will only divide the country. I hope cooler heads prevail and it is ended quickly.
You will NEVER make be believe that the murders have been committed by these thugs because Americans tortured "helpless Muslims".
If my sister, mother, father, brother or church-fellow was:
1. responsible for the deaths of thousands
2. was also actively promoting savagery towards other humans, and
3. had knowledge that would help authorities to prevent further mayhem
Then I would plead with them to cooperate to the fullest. If they did not cooperate, I would expect the authorities to make them very uncomfortable till he/she did.
Also, these enhanced interrogation methods (I do not consider this torture) were not wide spread. It is obvious that the decision to pursue this tactic was not taken lightly.
Widespread low-level abuse (like in Abu Grahib) is a different matter. That should not have happened, but that's not what we are discussing here.
Your position on this is beginning to sound like echos of the yammering salivating liberal wild dogs that are presently ruining our country!
Here's my take on so called torture. If the procedure keeps my children and grand children from being blown apart by some scumbag filthy Islamic fascist then get out the hand crank generator and the body cavity probes and start cranking with a vengeance!
And since Yon thinks it's a good thing to print Galloway's delusions, Yon himself is damaging our great nation, even as he laments the damage while reaping the benefits of being a US citizen protected by the greatest nation in the world. I don't (unlike Galloway) claim to know Yon's (or Galloway's) motives for spreading bizarre untruths about things they know nothing about, but I do know it is them doing the damage, along with Obama and the anti American left (within America and abroad), not Bush, not the military, not the CIA, and not those of us who are happy to see terrorists harshly interrogated.
It is my firm belief that the Gurkas are the very folks we need to use in the war against these Islamic fascists. They, the Gurkas, are born to this kind of conflict and have a long history of success in dealing with insurgents and terrorists. They could clean out the nest of terrorist rats in Pakistan and then go on the Afghanistan to mop up the rest. Probably have it all done before the next harvest of Opium!
Disclaimer: My apologies to all peaceful and loving rats for lowering them to the level of stinking filthy Islamic fascists!!
Sorry, but I'm just weary of listening to you, spineless people.
The Democrat party is on a never ending quest to investigate the Republicans & the Bush administration; taking the focus off of them & the Obama administration's dismantling of everything Bush put in place, that has kept us safe for 7 years.
We have a tax cheat in charge of the Treasury, a faggot responsible for the housing market fiasco, a woman in charge of Homeland Security, who wants to open our borders & a president who is turning America into a socialist country.
Wake up, people!
Torture: Inflicting severe pain; anguish of body or mind. Examples of torture:
(1) Losing your house and your credit to banks that gave you credit to buy a house so as to package the debt that you owe to them and then sell it to somebody else. Then the bank makes a huge profit from the sale and hands out enormous salaries to their executives and then rapes the banks assets for themselves while hanging their shareholders out to dry and then the executives bail and the bank winds up taking your tax money to repay them for the money they lost to their executives and for the money that they can longer make because their reputations are shot to hell.
(2) Being told that using certain words is illegal, and then a conglomeration of unregulated, non-governmental concerns called the media enforces these unwritten ƒ??lawsƒ?. Then when enough of you use certain words that are construed as ƒ??racistƒ?, then you are put under investigation by the Department of Homeland Security and are branded as a domestic terror suspect.
(3) Having absolutely no say whatsoever in a process whereby elected officials openly and brazenly issue insane amounts of debt to foreign countries in return for money that you gave them in return for the products, which were made by people who couldnƒ??t care less about anything you believe in, including environmentalis m, human rights, and democracy. Then the elected officials who signed off on this have the nerve to get up in front of the nation they represent and spout off a bunch of rhetoric about the virtues of environmentalis m, human rights, and democracy.
(4) Buying oil from people who openly use the money that they earn from the oil to send their own countrymen to come and fly airplanes into your buildings and kill thousands of people. Then completely ignoring them and invading a neighbor of theirs instead, while the price of oil skyrockets and people wind up going broke to pay for the oil that they have to buy from the people who bombed them.
(5) Finally, torture is waking up one day to find out that you have been in a coma for about twenty years. You find out that the President of the United States has engaged in acts ranging from lewd sexual behavior in the Oval Office with somebody who isnƒ??t the First Lady to going abroad and telling people there that the ones who voted for him are arrogant. You find out that the media is the new government of the country, and they make the rules that you must obey, while the elected government does anything it wants to do. You have to accept the fact that being lied to is not only normal but is downright acceptable and even fashionable.
At that point you realize that if only somebody had dunked your head in water while being suspended on a board then you might not have fallen into that coma and you might have woken up before it was too late.
-This- is an conversation the entire nation should, and must, have. Because our leaders must represent the values and ideals of the people, not the other way around.
After living in the US for almost 7 years, I keep seeing this same theme pop up over and over. America and Americans seem to really not like to fess up and take responsibility for mistakes. It's shown up in the torture issue, the Iraq war, the mistakes of Bush Jr II, and now the financial crises racking the world. There is lip service given to it, sure, but rarely a full-on mea culpa, here's what actually happened, here's who is actually responsible, here's the punishment they are getting, and now let's move forward. What I've seen is more along the lines of here's what happened (but let's not mention names or parties or - God forbid - funding support) and let's move on. Nothing to see here folks! And it's not like it's just from the top - people at the bottom seem to lap it up. Almost as if they don't WANT to know their responsibility in all this.
I've seen it in Obama, in Congress, and all the way down to friends of mine who vehemently argued for the actions and policies of Bush Jr II's Administration (e.g. Gitmo, torture, etc). Everybody seems quite content to sweep it all under the rug as unpleasant, and not to be talked about; taboo, almost. How can you have real resolution and change without acknowledging the events that led you there, which are usually (mostly) the causes of how you got there?
It is normal, mature and rational for a person to acknowledge the cause of their mistakes so they don't repeat them. If certain factions of the GOP and Bush II were behind torture, and you voted for them - acknowledge the mistake! Don't pretend it never happened. It just enables the continuation of this farce.
A great country should be able to take its medicine from time to time, because "great" does not equal "infallible"...especially not lately.
After living in the US for almost 7 years, I keep seeing this same theme pop up over and over. America and Americans seem to really not like to fess up and take responsibility for mistakes. It's shown up in the torture issue, the Iraq war, the mistakes of Bush Jr II, and now the financial crises racking the world. There is lip service given to it, sure, but rarely a full-on mea culpa, here's what actually happened, here's who is actually responsible, here's the punishment they are getting, and now let's move forward. What I've seen is more along the lines of here's what happened (but let's not mention names or parties or - God forbid - funding support) and let's move on. Nothing to see here folks! And it's not like it's just from the top - people at the bottom seem to lap it up. Almost as if they don't WANT to know their responsibility in all this.
I've seen it in Obama, in Congress, and all the way down to friends of mine who vehemently argued for the actions and policies of Bush Jr II's Administration (e.g. Gitmo, torture, etc). Everybody seems quite content to sweep it all under the rug as unpleasant, and not to be talked about; taboo, almost. How can you have real resolution and change without acknowledging the events that led you there, which are usually (mostly) the causes of how you got there?
It is normal, mature and rational for a person to acknowledge the cause of their mistakes so they don't repeat them. If certain factions of the GOP and Bush II were behind torture, and you voted for them - acknowledge the mistake! Don't pretend it never happened. It just enables the continuation of this farce.
A great country should be able to take its medicine from time to time, because "great" does not equal "infallible"...especially not lately.
You mean the same leahy who leaked information to the press which was completely unethical and he should have been removed from his position? Yeah lets quote him some more you ass! Do your homework.
"lEven if you believe that the end justifies the means and ignore the numerous factual flaws in this ex post facto defense, it doesn't address the question of how many of the 4,954 American troops whoƒ??ve been killed to date in Afghanistan and Iraq were killed by Islamic jihadists who were recruited in part by the revelations that we were torturing helpless Muslims."
Holy $&*^! Now we need to make sure we don't do anything to make the Islamic Jihadist mad. Based on that, all us Christians will be dying soon and Israel will be wiped off the face of the Earth. Is this guy serious? What a complete idiotic thing to say.
By pushing this commentary, you do a disservice to your prior fine work.
"The number of times the person was water boarded is a msm lie. The number refers to the number of water pours. The drive-by's know no limit of deceit."
That one three sentence statement defines succinctly what is really going on here and it's not about whether the U.S. tortures or not. It is about how the MGMSM (MegaGlomerate MainStream Media) is manipulating the scene and the socio-political arguments. They are pitting one group against another in the name of advertising revenues, even Fox News! You are being bamboozled, hoodwinked, and run-a-muck!
The Tax Protests are really mislabeled. They should be MGMSM protests instead, as most of the disgust I hear coming out these events is directed at the MGMSM. Obomber is just a side issue compared to the disdain for the MGMSM and their ilk! Real American's are now onto the real rotten apples and are organizing to throw out the herd of pigs gorging themselves at the taxpayers trough!
You better than anyone know the depths of depravity that the jihadists will go to to further their 'cause'.
This is a massively dishonest article.
Burn those books BTW. You have sold out.
You better than anyone know the depths of depravity that the jihadists will go to to further their 'cause'.
This is a massively dishonest article.
Burn those books BTW. You have sold out.
The memos show that the enhanced interrogation was a difficult decision and that it was taken deliberately!
The 'mistake' is that the memos - and obama - seem to be opening the door for a witch hunt.
BTW - the only one denying their responsibility - so far - has been Nancy Pelosi. She should be crucified for not defending her position at the time. Everyone else involved is shocked by the left wing vitriolic reaction.
Jerry, Carol, Stevend....brilliant comments and deductions. Let us not forget we have the sanity and goodness within our ranks to overcome this monstrosity called terrorism....and hopefully the tenacity and wisdom to stay strong. It isn't easy making the decisions the Bush administration made but they kept us safe and saved lives. Now we have people seeking to punish them? Endangering future safeguards? Are they out of their cotton pickin' minds???
Keep voicing your opinions, America, and yes, even you Michael C. though I think your heart is hardly here in the United States. You have a right to be unfairly critical just as "Joe" does. It's people like you who cement my determination to grow, be aware and help my nation overcome results stemming from foolish minds who would be our downfall. God bless you, and the USA.
If the armed forces of two nations fight a conventional war, uniformed soldiers captured by either side deserve to be treated humanely. Al Qaida deserves nothing.
I also don't care about the recurring argument that evil men will like us better if we're nice to them. We better treat the Somali pirates nice or they'll get mad at us. We better not try to protect the Bosnian civilians or the Serbs will get mad at us. That argument trots out every time we are face to face with evil, and it always suggests that we should sit on our hands. Our enemies slaughter the maximum number of civilians, for the glory of Allah, that they are able to. Anything that we can do to them to reduce that capability makes the world a safer place for western civilization, whose side I happen to be on.
[edit] George W. Bush administration
In a number of columns, Galloway has spoken out against the Iraq War and George W. Bush. In a column on July 6, 2007, Galloway asked why the Bush administration "looks remarkably more like an organized crime ring than one of the arms of the American government?" He further asks what happened to the George W. Bush he voted for in 2000 and who promised to give a government "whose appointees would be honest, upright, fair and moral." On March 13, 2008 he published a commentary titled "When Will It End?" that asked, "[t]he next time that we Americans start thinking about maybe electing someone with no known talent, limited useful experience and an IQ that's barely equal to his body temperature, what say we just leave the presidency vacant and the White House shuttered for eight years or so?"
This man obviously has an agenda, nothing he said can be believed. Michael if you ally yourslf with him you are a fool..
We stopped doing the relatively mild stuff (compared to water boarding and use of attack dogs that is) in NI!:
1. Because the US and Europe complained. And we respected their opinion.
2. Because it was proving counter productive - even some comparatively de-motivated young Irish lads we're taking up arms when word got out about what we were up to. They probably wouldn't have had we behaved appropriately. By using torture, whatever the short term gains are perceived to be, you are losing the information war, success in which is key to any winning strategy in the asymmetric struggle WE ARE ALL IN.
And, here's some news for those of you church goin' Republicans who think this is a modern Crusade: Most of the 'Taleban' are not religious fanatics! For example, my friend had a meal with a Taleban commander who we were trying to 'turn'. His wife sat by him during the entire meal and often chipped in with comments on the situation in Helmand. That sound like an Islamic Fundamentalist to you...? Many are just ordinary guys who want us out of their country because we represent a corrupt central government they despise - this sound familiar to you guys? I hear the same complaint from you about your government all the bloody time!
Oh and Tommy, having served alongside Ghurkhas on several occasions in the past, I have to tell you that no-one in Britain would EVER have called them 'Wogs', you Muppet.
I want to know how Galloway comes to the conclusion that terrorists captured on the battlefield, or were known terrorists leaders are "innocent Muslims." Or, how he knows that scads of knew terrorists were recruited when it was revealed that waterboarding existed. Did that revelation recruit more people than, say, terrorists broadcasting cutting off people's heads on Al Jazeera? Inquiring minds want to know.
This is the state of journalism that plays fast and loose with the facts.
To dissuade all attempts to label me an animal abuser I wish give evidence me lord!
Follow this link to see the "tortured" cat;-) http://tommybarrios.com/media/photos/photos-maxxphotos-maxx
Why not see what the experts have to say, the experts on torture that is: Al Qaeda
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2007/0524072torture1.html
You won't see water boarding in their hand book of torture. What you will see is descriptions of REAL torture. None of which seem to be inspired by some evil act committed by Americans (or more specifically, American presidents of the GOP persuasion).
I wonder if Joe Galloway will blame the Obama administration for any deaths that result from the imminent release of more Abu Ghraib photos? Seems the democrats feel the need to dig up that dead horse and beat it some more, regardless of the repercussions.
I said it before and that's all I can say now. I know Mr. Yon and Mr. Galloway are likely on the same thought when it comes to waterboarding, which is all anyone is calling torture now, but even then, no one died from it apparently. If they did then someone should go to jail for obviously violating a law.
The decisions to use enhanced interrogation techniques look to be throughly thought out legal opinion not based on a political decision.
I'm sure aborting a child isn't torture though... but you still kill a life. Yet its legal... hmm. Priorities people, priorities.
Zeig Hiel, Obomber, Reich Fuhrer Pelosi!, and Ober Kommander Reid!
Look for the ƒ??Brown Shirtsƒ? to appear next!
PS The link in my last missive about my cat is FUBAR: http://tommybarrios.com/media/photos/photos-maxx
I was referring to the time when Britain was an OCCUPYING FORCE in a sovereign country called INDIA, when all INDIANS including the loyal Gurkha where indeed called "wogs", you British FOP!
Also do dare try to preach to us about ANYTHING, when your country stood for centuries as one of the worst progenitors of murder, rapine, subjugation, exploitation, slavery and a host of other atrocities, all the name of the glorious imperialistic empire, Britannia!
Yeah ya'll where big stuff on the planet, until you met the colonials, eh:-)
Obama has dregged up memos from 6-7 years ago and is considering whether crimes were committed. Obama kisses Castro's ass, Obama kisses Chavez's ass, Obama kisses Iran's ass, he kisses North Korean ass, but he wants to imprison his political opposition in the USA. It's a disgusting politics.
Oh and, btw, by the time word leaked out about the USA use of waterboarding, the USA also put a stop to it. This was not and is not an on-going effort.
And has anyone actually put thought into the sort of world created when the supposed leader of the free world does not abide by international law? The only way to prevent future terrorists from attacking us is not to go around torturing people who may or may not be terrorists, guaranteeing new enemies. Terrorism is like a particularly virulent germ, to kill it you don't go after it alone, you deny it an environment to flourish in. Killing terrorists is fine, but that will never eliminate them. Take away it's source, it's discontented masses, the misunderstandin g and ignorance, the poverty and hatred, and you deny it the population it draws its strength from. Bludgeoning them into submission won't happen, sorry cave men.
And lastly, Obama seems to realize something so many of his critics do not. War is far more costly than diplomacy, both in dollars and in lives. Extending an invitation to negotiate, open dialog, at the very least create some sort of understanding between two countries costs less than the shattered lives of the maimed, the dead, and the psychologically damaged. Mr. Bush did not seem to think lives or money was important, and so now we find ourselves deeply in debt, far more than ever before, with a line of flag-draped caskets extending off into the distance. A little diplomacy would have saved the lives of some of our brave soldiers, without question. Torture doesn't foster understanding or lay the groundwork for peace, it generates anger, resentment, and misunderstandin g, the groundwork for more terrorism. Consequences folks, consequences.
The *only* way. If you could spare an ounce of your surpassing understanding of the terrorist mindset - I, personally, have no idea what drives a man to wish to commit mass murder/suicide for religious gain, and will defer to your insight - please explain how the '93 WTC bombing and the 9/11 attacks fit into this "torture:terrori sm" causation theory?
Or, perhaps, could people who wish to die in the name of their Religion and kill as many innocent people as possible simply be driven by things beyond your understanding? Again, I don't understand the terrorist mindset like you do, but really am wondering if I'm just bat sh** crazy to think that.
If not - and I'll assume you're correct, here - just explain where we were torturing people prior to '93 or 9/11 and thus caused these people to harden against us and decide, logically of course, to simply radicalize and assume the jihad.
Torture is a tool of the inept, unskilled interrogator. Unless all you're looking for is a confession of guilt for some kangaroo court, it is counter-productive from an intelligence collection stand point. And guess what, we're in the most intelligence-driven war we've ever faced. We need bad guys to tell us what they know ... WILLINGLY!!! That only comes from a skilled, knowledgeable interrogation team (gator and analyst). And guess what, it can be done surprisingly fast with a competent crew. It's all about knowing your target, at the micro level. Hell, typically the only guys that are the hard-cases are low-level pipe-swingers who don't know shit anyways. The more important guys are typically a little older and have more to lose from incarceration. Funny what a wife, kid and a mortgage will do to even the most fervent extremist! From my perspective, the shift from mass sweeps and arrests to more focused targeting was/is also a significant contributing factor. Good gators and analysts aren't a dime-a-dozen. You don't want to waste the time of a skilled crew having to conduct triage of mass groups of detainees all the time. The action arms need to make sure they are only sending up the right people as well , so the burden ain't entirely on the gator team.
For those that say we should treat the enemy like they treat us seriously need to go back and reread our nation's history and how it came to be. That's the morality aspect. I'd also recommend the book 'The Accidental Guerrilla' and learn who we're really fighting over there. Torture only pushes more of the fence-sitters into the laps of the enemy. Abu G confirmed for millions of young takfiri-extremists what AQ's propaganda machine had been saying for years. Hell, AQSL must have been beside themselves when we played right into their propaganda. It was a windfall for them. Those that think this didn't play a part in drawing thousands of foreign extremists to Iraq to fuel the insurgency need to pull their heads out of their asses. The abuses at Abu G did more to fuel (and prolong) the insurgency than just about any other single act of the war (except maybe the Samarra shrine bombing).
and lastly, regardless of the crimes these people have committed; at the end of the day, once they are in handcuffs (or otherwise disarmed), they are human beings who deserve to be treated humanely. Just because! That's who we are.
Erik
Torture is a tool of the inept, unskilled interrogator. Unless all you're looking for is a confession of guilt for some kangaroo court, it is counter-productive from an intelligence collection stand point. And guess what, we're in the most intelligence-driven war we've ever faced. We need bad guys to tell us what they know ... WILLINGLY!!! That only comes from a skilled, knowledgeable interrogation team (gator and analyst). And guess what, it can be done surprisingly fast with a competent crew. It's all about knowing your target, at the micro level. Hell, typically the only guys that are the hard-cases are low-level pipe-swingers who don't know shit anyways. The more important guys are typically a little older and have more to lose from incarceration. Funny what a wife, kid and a mortgage will do to even the most fervent extremist! From my perspective, the shift from mass sweeps and arrests to more focused targeting was/is also a significant contributing factor. Good gators and analysts aren't a dime-a-dozen. You don't want to waste the time of a skilled crew having to conduct triage of mass groups of detainees all the time. The action arms need to make sure they are only sending up the right people as well , so the burden ain't entirely on the gator team.
For those that say we should treat the enemy like they treat us seriously need to go back and reread our nation's history and how it came to be. That's the morality aspect. I'd also recommend the book 'The Accidental Guerrilla' and learn who we're really fighting over there. Torture only pushes more of the fence-sitters into the laps of the enemy. Abu G confirmed for millions of young takfiri-extremists what AQ's propaganda machine had been saying for years. Hell, AQSL must have been beside themselves when we played right into their propaganda. It was a windfall for them. Those that think this didn't play a part in drawing thousands of foreign extremists to Iraq to fuel the insurgency need to pull their heads out of their asses. The abuses at Abu G did more to fuel (and prolong) the insurgency than just about any other single act of the war (except maybe the Samarra shrine bombing).
and lastly, regardless of the crimes these people have committed; at the end of the day, once they are in handcuffs (or otherwise disarmed), they are human beings who deserve to be treated humanely. Just because! That's who we are.
Erik
Other than that, you are repeating talking points, but not making a coherent argument. In fact, your rhetoric is the exact witch hunt that I fear most.
First, your factual errors:
1. You automatically conflate water boarding with torture. There is a legitimate disagreement on whether or not that is accurate.
2. Who said the US can do no wrong? No one.
3. There was no breaking of international law.
4. Enhanced interrogation methods were used only rarely. When it was done, it was done within defined medical parameters and only on very bad men. It was not used on folks who may or may not be terrorists.
You also make many policy mistakes and misinterpretati ons of history:
1. Standing up to evil is the only way to defeat evil. Left alone, evil will metastasize into greater evil. See Nazi Germany or Al Queada itself, which was allowed to grow throught the 1980s and 90s.
2. No one understands the high cost of war more than the readership here at Michael Yon. You are right that War is more expensive than diplomacy. However, if a war must be waged, it is better to fight a war when an enemy is weak, and defeat that enemy as quickly as possible. Allowing your enemy to get too strong so they can attack you is inviting disaster.
3. You do not seem to realize that "Al queada" is not a country. Who are you negotiating with? What are you willing to bargain away and what concessions are you expecting in return?
4. Your attacks on GWB are banal. Get a new trick. For example, I have no idea what 'little diplomacy' was missing from GWB. A great deal of diplomatic outreaches were made....frequently. You are just misinformed. And if you hate the budget deficits from 2001-07, you must be really fuming with the Obama spending plan. Or do you admit your hypocacy?
5. By the way, are you at outraged that BHO had those Somali pirates killed? Is killing Somali pirates just creating more pirates? I mean, those kids didn't even get a trial. Isn't that cave-man like?
No, it is not about instituting torture as a national policy. I disagree.
It's about defining how far an interrogator can go using enhanced interrogation methods.
These methods were used rarely.
It's obvious from the memos that doing so was not done without careful consideration. It was felt to be necessary. In the aftermath of 9/11, it was a ticking time-bomb scenario. Did it work? I don't know. I've heard both yes and no said as fact. But if it was done in a limited manner to save Americans, I'm not going to judge it in the negative.
He talks about having understanding of the aforementioned scum without having real understanding of who he is even talking about. He talks like these fascist dictators are some disgruntled street thugs that can be coerced with bribes and coddling. That they can somehow be educated to error of their ways by sending them to a rhetorical international community college of kumbya mind think! Excuse me while I laugh my ass off at that one!
Yes we can be rest assured that Obomber and his ilk will talk us right out all the world's problems and into peace and prosperity by playing nice with all the worlds international thugs!
Patrick you rest your families safety and security on that BS, I'll rest mine on the loyal patriotic NSA agents who are working hard 24/7/365 to defeat the terrorist thugs and their supporters rather than play nice and talk nice!
Can I get a big AMEN?
How is it an AH-64 Apache whose machine gun dismembers and pops enemies like a zit is OK but faking a drowning is an " ugly chapter in the life of a nation"! Get the hell out of here with that crap.Or how about a grenade thrown into a room of jihadis? I don't mind an Apache going after these barbarians neither do I mind chucking grenades before entering a fine establishment! Neither do I mind terrorists getting "baptized" with a gallon of a water shooting through their nose.
Is water boarding fun? No! Is it rough? Yes! but is it torture? No!
How many readers of this blog have gone to SERE school?
Ironic, these memos come out when King Abdullah II bin al-Hussein arrives. The same King Abdullah II bin al-Hussein who on a morning talk show said we "torture". Gotta love the Muslim brotherhood!
The Taliban pulls the skin off of peoples heads. Our troops have been mutilated and their genitals cut off and you're boo hooing about a mind game.
So, please sir, what would you do with these animals? GIVE ME A FREAKIN' SOLUTION!!!
Is it any worse than say partial birth abortion or leaving abortion survivors to die in an empty room? Not even in the same ballpark.
So until I see rage from you Mr. Galloway and that wussy CINC we call Barack Hussein Obama about the destruction of children and leaving them to DIE I could give a rats a$% about a terrorist getting "stung" by an insect that doesn't sting and a hairy bastard, who cuts off heads and planned the deaths of thousands of my country men, who gets a bad day at the water park.
It is perfectly obvious that we have taken one of the tools off the table for obtaining intelligence. I'm sure that the Al Quaeda have been training their people, as do we, how to resist this technique ever since they heard about our use of it. Now they won't even have to do that. If we don't soon get serious about fighting this Jihad instead of asking the world's forgiveness for protecting ourselves we'll take out values to the grave.
And yes, I've been to SERE school and was one of the few waterboarded. Much info is now coming out. My final decision on torture is on hold but I am against it, basically for a variety of reasons.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/22/us/politics/22blair.html?_r=1&hp
"The information gained from these techniques was valuable in some instances, but there is no way of knowing whether the same information could have been obtained through other means,ƒ? Admiral Blair said in a written statement issued last night. ƒ??The bottom line is these techniques have hurt our image around the world, the damage they have done to our interests far outweighed whatever benefit they gave us and they are not essential to our national security."
I would like to see released the information that was obtained thru torture that can be directly linked to preventing an imminent attack as the former VP has requested. I oppose prosecution of anyone. I could care less who did or didn't agree. These are politicians we are talking about, after all.
Here is a link to a blog where a guy describes being waterboarded...at Warner Springs. He says the obvious...."It's bad, but not Torture"
http://cajunhuguenot1.blogspot.com/2006/11/what-is-water-boarding-first-hand_06.html
http://engram-backtalk.blogspot.com/2009/04/be-brave-and-be-serious-draw-torture.html
One commenter wrote that war is black and white. It is either killed or be killed. That is the rational that got us Bush. War is not so cut and dry. If it was kill or be killed we would just go in and carpet bomb Iraq. There are choices in wartime and a lot of them involve gray. It is that gray space in which the public is debating now. I believe that by not torturing, America is safer. Keep up the good work Mr. Yon.
I would like to see an honest medical comparison with someone who survived waterboarding, with the methods in Al Qaedas manual! Some of the participants of this board say they have been through waterboarding and I will respect that. I intend no disrepect to their experience, but if the protesters were to stand them in comparison with a survivor of Al Qaedas methods, the difference would be more like comparing probation with capital punishment.
Respectfully
Michael
shit 'community organizer' who is WAY out of his league as "Leader" of the Free World! He is a Little-League Ballplayer
who through GOD ONLY KNOWS HOW managed to get enough Wall Streeters,etc, to BUY & STEAL the damn election!
The release of these papers was nothing but a cheap damn polotical move to 'Get a little heat off NObama'! Look at how
fast this FALSE "LEADER" RUSHED to the CIA to kiss a little ass & grovel & bow to try to keep The Agency happy! He
didn't bow to them as he did the Saudi King, Not that the MSM would have reported it if he did! They are all his BEST
Spokesmen! If this saved ONE American life, IT WAS DAMN WELL WORTH IT!!! This has been going on since the 60's,Probably longer than that!
Now it is being used as a polotical tool by Obama, Truth, Plain & Simple, Like it or Not! aFTER 40 years this has suddenely
made us the "Bad Guys" Bullshit! Obama, Pelosi, at work again!!! Pulling out fingernails, electric shocks, cig burns, beatings,
etc, THAT ISTORTURE, This is purely MENTAL! Yes, Some discomfort but mostly the mind reacting to a natural instinct,
Most talk in under a minute! Bush & Cheney DID NOT start anything new, The MSM may have a lot of 'sheeple' falling for this obama "I'm the Good Guy" Bullshit, But many know better!!!!
Snortechero- I didn't say you went thru SERE, I asked you if you did. Some would see the distinction. MOS is an army term so I guess you spent a few years in that branch. The riverine base I worked out of was Nam Can on the Cau Lon river on the southernmost tip of Vietnam and definitely in indian country. I am pretty sure every navy guy there from the senior naval advisor to the lowest ranking enlisted went thru SERE simply because of the location. And there were many similar bases like that in country so a lot of non-SEAL/pilots went thru SERE training.
I do not consider Waterboarding as it was used as torture. It was not indiscriminate but directed and limited, with specific intent that when achieved was ceased. The lengths the legal opinions went to, determining what they believed was within the law was a very difficult thing to do. Lawyers do not render moral opinions, they unfortunately are trained to think legally. (one of my major complaints about the profession) These lawyers that wrote the opinions in the memos did not put forth their personal opinions, but what they could find written and codified in treaties and agreements that the U.S. of A. is bound to honor.
No one has ever determined where the line is. Its not pornography, I know it when I see it!
Just asking for this opinion shows courage, rendering the facts of what was found was brave, not valorous perhaps. But this was their arena, no one has argued that they incorrectly cited the laws as they found them. Just that it wasn't a nice thing for the U.S. to do, while we needed to know what could be done so that it would not be exceeded, and to protect those that had the distasteful task. Or do you think they were salivating to press another human, in a hard manner?
KSM and his compatriots have by their actions at trial shown that what we did to them was not torture, they are healthier in body than ever before. And quick of wit in their sort. Their mindset was a train wreck before they came into our custody, in my opinion. And short of making them watch American television I dare say we could not hurt them further.
So if you can find fault in the legal logic of the opinions proffered by the memos, do so. Otherwise stop being the critic that is not in the arena!
And I could not give a tinkers dam about 'world opinion'
I never said you said I said I went through SERE. I answered your question "Have you?".meaning have I been through SERE school?) with "I never made the claim I had". And when I said "You did" I meant you said you had gone through SERE. That seemed pretty clear to me, but obviously it was an awkward way of responding. I understand why you misinterpreted that as me saying you said I said I had.
I did not know that "MOS" is apparently not used by the Navy (it's the Army and USMC acronym for military occupational specialty) I was curious why you went throughy SERE school. You answered in fine fashion, and thank you for serving. Viet Nam was an honorable war, and your service honorable. We should have won.
I've never been in the military.
Folks like you, who are so full of hatred, are hard to understand...but then I'm glad I dont understand you. I'd rather understand the real world than the one you've created in you mind.
"Rendition"? You mean the practice started by President Clinton of sending terrorists to nations that will treat them as they deserve? Oh yeah, there's a big problem.
Mr. Yon, I've had a deep respect for you for years. It will probably not be restored going forward. I guess it's better to find this out, though, that my trust, regard, respect for you was misplaced.
So many commenters below have described the wrongheadedness in this editorial that I need not add more.
Sadly,
JNT
Itƒ??s very simple really by torturing we hurt our country ƒ??MOREƒ? in the long run and any short term gains that are made by torturingƒ??.. It is really that simple.
We are isolating ourselves in the world by being labeled as a country that is or has tortured people. You canƒ??t get rid of this label by taking a showerƒ??.this is now who we are in the eyes of the world. Today in the world we have the big stick and if the world does not like it so what. Again we are hurting our country and ourselves by this bully attitude. The world see us as people who torture and they donƒ??t like us for it, in some cases it is the fuel for more violence again us.
You always have to do the right thing even if you donƒ??t like it. People in the world now think we are criminals, have broken international laws. We done wrong for the right reasons but end the end it is still wrong no matter how much sugar you try and put on it!
Our country is strong enough to crush the bad guys, and without doing torture where we become the bad guys.
Having moral courage and the spine to stand straight when someone has wronged you without taking the low road and doing torture on them is something up until now America could be proud of. America has no problem with handing out punishment to the bay guys here. America just does not stand so tall in the world any more because of the torture and in the long run has hurt our country more because of it.
"We are isolating ourselves in the world by being labeled........." Really? We're isolated? Is China isolated? China is a country that really tortures people, it's own people? Is Saudi Arabia isolated? They whack hands, feet, and heads off people. Is Venezuela isolated? Or Cuba? They both torture their own folks just for disagreeing. We're talking about real torture....years of isolation and starvation....broken bones....families thrown from homes.
Open your mind and see reality. Provide evidence that waterboarding, or mild sleep deprivation, or limited exposure to cold...music....darkness/light, amounts to torture. And when you do, remember it's only your opinion.
It's really that simple
There are books on torture written by Americans that you will find on Amazon, you will also find these books on the bookshelves in many other countries. I have seen them myself and the books do sell.
What we as a country do is of interest to the world, the world expects America to be better than the other countries.
Perception is often reality for many people, no need to prove to anyone if water boarding is torture. The simple fact is we as a country did it and the perception of a lot of the world is Americanƒ??s torture people. It is a very good recruiting tool for the bad guys!
America is hurt more by ƒ??water boardingƒ? AKA ƒ??tortureƒ? (for the rest of the world) in the long run than any short term information received from it.
Stop making kindergarten excuses about what other countries do, we need to always have the moral high ground. Watch this issue with more pictures about to come out this issue will go on and on to hurt our country more and more.
Again we did the wrong thing for the right reasonƒ??.
Regards,
Doug Welty
Lt., USN, formerly
SERE school survivor, Warner Springs, Cal., Winter 1975
Itƒ??s really really really NOT torture, just as soon as you can get the rest of the world to believe that you might be on to something.
Have all the books taken out of print about America being a people who use torture.
Have all of the news coverage around the world about America being a country that tortures people stopped.
Have Al Qaeda/Al Qaida stop using this issue as a recruiting tool.
It is too late in the day to try and convince the rest of the world that we ƒ??reallyƒ? did not ƒ??tortureƒ? anyone. Yeah right!
We done wrong for the right reason and the wrong we did is hurting America and it will go on hurting us for a long time.
I'm guessing the latter is all you have.
Because the facts of this matter are clear, undeniable, well known to those who care to know/accept them but also, at the same time, well covered up and obfuscated by the leftist, bash America, hate BusHitler / Darth Cheney media.
.
I voted for Bush both times for me I like someone I think will push the button, someone with guts to make the hard calls.
By having a little discussion here about whether water boarding is tortureƒ??is too late in the game.
We did the wrong thing in the eyes of the world and in the eyes of some of our fellow Americans. To try and change your mind or to try and change the worlds mind is for the most part impossible.
If we did not do it to start with, then all of the books that are in the book stores in many countries and the news specials around the world would not be trashing America, making more people hate us!
There is more to come on this issue, other pictures will be released within the next month and it just adds up and hurts our country.
The ƒ??RESULTƒ? of what we did is now the focus in the world! Trying to make them believe what is or is not torture is after the fact.
I will say this again:
Having moral courage and the spine to stand straight when someone has wronged you without taking the low road and doing torture on them is something up until now America could be proud of. America has no problem with handing out punishment to the bay guys here. America just does not stand so tall in the world any more because of the torture and in the long run has hurt our country more because of it.
We did the wrong thing for ALL of the right reasons; our country has been and will continue to be hurt by what we did.
As for the pending release of pictures, you do know that involves prisoners held in Iraq (IE Abu Ghraib etc.) being mistreated by errant soldiers acting on their own initiative and has absolutely nothing to do with government sanctioned enhanced interrogation being sparingly and selectively used on three high ranking AQ detainees? You can see the difference there, right?
I have followed, closely, the recent back and forth on the issue of waterboarding, memos, prosecutions (or not), and various other volleys fired from the incompetent children in charge.
Did you know, for instance, that waterboarding is employed on our own members of Special Forces during training?
Or that we are, in fact, arguing over three cases of waterboarding and the most celebrated of which, Abu Zubaydah, suddenly got very cooperative and gave up Ramzi bin al-Shibh - a member of bin Laden's inner circle - who in turn gave up Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the architect of the 9/11 plot, and the uncovering of a plot to target the West Coast in a second wave of attacks?
Do you know why you may not have heard about this?
Because while the Obama administration struts and preens, continuously patting themselves on the backs for not being Bush, they only give the American people half the story. It's a tactic aimed at appeasing the far left, and so far it's worked.
I'm with former V.P., Dick Cheney, when I ask Mr. Obama to make good on his campaign promise of transparency in government.
If he's going to release confidential CIA memos regarding interrogation techniques, let's also see the memos detailing the successes, and failures, those techniques brought us.
As it stands, the Obama administration is sending a very clear message to the intelligence community. And that message is "stand down" or run the risk of prosecution for following orders from the highest office in the land.
As former CIA Director Michael Hayden has said, the effect of the release is to "invite the kind of institutional timidity and fear of recrimination that weakened intelligence gathering in the past, and that we came sorely to regret on Sept. 11, 2001."
It also has the effect of making other operatives around the world shy away from cooperating with the United States' intelligence offices.
As I said, we tread dangerous waters and if we do not pay attention here those waters will become shark-infested.
I don't know much about waterboarding, but it sounds like the "water cure" that President Theodore Roosevelt called torture. The old water cure from the Phillipines was treated as torture, and officers responsible for ordering it were court-martialed, according to a 25 Feb 2008 New Yorker article by Paul Kramer. You should read it. [http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/02/25/080225fa_fact_k ramer?currentPage=all]
I think waterboarding would terrify me, but I'm afraid of drowning. I'm probably not tough enough to withstand it, and admitting that doesn't create in me any self-doubt about my worth or manhood.
The people who claim to have been waterboarded as part of an exercise haven't really been waterboarded. If you're being waterboarded by your enemy, you must surely have at least a doubt in your mind that you will survive. If you're on a waterboard as part of an exercise, you know that people are at the ready to help you if things go wrong. In a true waterboarding, it's that seed of doubt about your survival that creates the terror in your mind.
It seems to me the people who justify waterboarding because of its effectiveness are on weak logical and moral grounds. Just because A is effective doesn't mean B, C or D are not also effective. And being effective doesn't make it moral.
It's easy to deceive ourselves that something an ally did is right. Those who react before they examine, and I am often one of them, may live to regret it.
Any politician who is now saying that that he was not briefed about the waterboarding when in fact he, or she, was aware of it at the time, approved of it, or didn't object to it, is the worst sort of coward.
I don't know much about waterboarding, but it sounds like the "water cure" that President Theodore Roosevelt called torture. The old water cure from the Phillipines was treated as torture, and officers responsible for ordering it were court-martialed, according to a 25 Feb 2008 New Yorker article by Paul Kramer. You should read it. [http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/02/25/080225fa_fact_k ramer?currentPage=all]
I think waterboarding would terrify me, but I'm afraid of drowning. I'm probably not tough enough to withstand it, and admitting that doesn't create in me any self-doubt about my worth or manhood.
The people who claim to have been waterboarded as part of an exercise haven't really been waterboarded. If you're being waterboarded by your enemy, you must surely have at least a doubt in your mind that you will survive. If you're on a waterboard as part of an exercise, you know that people are at the ready to help you if things go wrong. In a true waterboarding, it's that seed of doubt about your survival that creates the terror in your mind.
It seems to me the people who justify waterboarding because of its effectiveness are on weak logical and moral grounds. Just because A is effective doesn't mean B, C or D are not also effective. And being effective doesn't make it moral.
It's easy to deceive ourselves that something an ally did is right. Those who react before they examine, and I am often one of them, may live to regret it.
Any politician who is now saying that that he was not briefed about the waterboarding when in fact he, or she, was aware of it at the time, approved of it, or didn't object to it, is the worst sort of coward.
I don't know much about waterboarding, but it sounds like the "water cure" that President Theodore Roosevelt called torture. The old water cure from the Phillipines was treated as torture, and officers responsible for ordering it were court-martialed, according to a 25 Feb 2008 New Yorker article by Paul Kramer. You should read it. [http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/02/25/080225fa_fact_k ramer?currentPage=all]
I think waterboarding would terrify me, but I'm afraid of drowning. I'm probably not tough enough to withstand it, and admitting that doesn't create in me any self-doubt about my worth or manhood.
The people who claim to have been waterboarded as part of an exercise haven't really been waterboarded. If you're being waterboarded by your enemy, you must surely have at least a doubt in your mind that you will survive. If you're on a waterboard as part of an exercise, you know that people are at the ready to help you if things go wrong. In a true waterboarding, it's that seed of doubt about your survival that creates the terror in your mind.
It seems to me the people who justify waterboarding because of its effectiveness are on weak logical and moral grounds. Just because A is effective doesn't mean B, C or D are not also effective. And being effective doesn't make it moral.
It's easy to deceive ourselves that something an ally did is right. Those who react before they examine, and I am often one of them, may live to regret it.
Any politician who is now saying that that he was not briefed about the waterboarding when in fact he, or she, was aware of it at the time, approved of it, or didn't object to it, is the worst sort of coward.
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