From what little I have seen so far I can only say: They should be glad they didn't have to go thru boot camp in the 1940's.

Abortion of 40 million humans is torture. Obama and his supporters are hypocrites of the highest order. Who is to define what is and is not torture? I agree we should not torture. However, the president should never openly limit his options to our enemies.
Hap

Torture has no place in our national defense. If we wish to influence the world with our leadership, we must stand on moral highground. It makes no sense to get down in the mud with dishonorable enemies...there is no telling how deep they'll take us into the muck.

These terrorists commit unfathomable acts of horror on others. I would LIKE to believe that gaining information from them without any misery is possible, but hey...these guys are willing and happy to DIE to inflict horror on others. I don't see why ANYONE captured would EVER tell the ENEMY ANYTHING if there were no repercussions for not doing so! I think I believe in "gentlemanly torture" if that makes sense to anybody??? I would never condone torture that would leave permanent marks or life long sustaining or debilitating injury to another...but some unbearable temporary pain in my opinion is the only thing that might make these extremists talk. Getting your ass kicked won't kill you, but it will make you think twice about the same behavior again Ask my Daddy and the belt he had for us when we were little

Definition is the key here. One person and/or country's idea of torture can vary greatly. I would agree that real, serious, medieval torture has no benefit or place in our world although where does that leave the people intent on killing us??? Since we no longer torture our abused prisoners (I have never believed that torture took place in Guantanamo) I have to ask what possible good are they? After a nice cup of tea and a chat, if the enemy who is intent on killing every american soldier, civilian and child has nothing to offer, we should simply remove them from the equation. I can't imagine than anyone would disagree that after the ravaging the US and our armed forces took over the Abu Ghraib scandal, we should never again hold prisoners... period. If they are indeed the enemy they must not be allowed to return to fight a different day. We cannot afford to have a military second guessing that if they catch a serious bad guy Obama is going to turn him loose... my bet is it will be taken care of in the field.

WHAT TORTURE? Please, B-HO is not taking the "high ground." These guys deserve far worse than volleyball courts, specially prepared meals, and far better living conditions than they received in preparation for killing Americans. I have absolutely no sympathy for detainees at GITMO. I had a tougher time in basic training when I joined the USAF in 1976. I would bet that the detainees don't have to scrub the latrine with their toothbrushes, as I had to! Actually, I doubt they even had toothbrushes prior to their stay at GITMO.

LET THEM ROT, and bring on the water boarding. They should be thankful they are permitted to sling excrement at the guards, in lieu of the public beheading that is dealt to journalists! Water boarding is too mild for them, in my opinion.

Public floggings and, when necessary, swift, painful public executions would dramatically decrease the need for future floggings and executions. This applies to prisoners of war and domestic criminals.

Just remember, the Al Qaeda Training Manual (yes, google it) states for an Al Qaeda detainee to "claim" he was tortured at every opportunity and they obviously are following their manual. The Russians don't have the problems we have with terrorists, because when confronted with an animal they get on all fours. They've said time and time again that we Americans don't have the stomach for what needs to be done... and they are right. Many people here in America eat meat but few have been inside a slaughter house. Why? Because it's hard to stomach and we just don't want to think about it. Water-boarding, sleep D, etc., gets results... results that save American lives. Heck, every other second and third world county uses pliers and a blow torch... now that's torture! Wake up America!!

My response when he said that, and I said out loud to the t.v., was, "Good, we never did torture, so glad to hear we won't be in the future!!!!"

Pouring a little water on KSM's face for thirty seconds apparently resulted in a wealth of information that most definitely saved innocent lives. Same with his two AQ buddies. That isn't torture, that's getting the job done. This enemy saws off heads of tied victims and chants about how great God is. They must be dancing in the streets at how naive and foolish are we Westerners. And our appearance of weakness will only further fuel their rabid jihadism.

There is no way that anyone can conclusively state that torture has not yielded positive results in the extraction of valuable information that has resulted in the saving of an individual life, or in wartime, many lives. Plans of attack, or weaknesses in methods of defense have given victory to one side or the other, and the degree of torture has been determined by the degree of ability of the captive to withstand the torture, and the result can (but not surely) be false information.
Some methods have been brutal, some more subtle, but to deny that many times they have been effective in reducing casualties on one side, or assuring victory to the other, is ridiculous.
I'm sure the Nazis, for example, captured many saboteurs through their methods of torture, and the patriots who gave up their comrades did so only because they could go no further.
On the other hand, to people with high moral convictions, being the torturer is repulsive, or knowing that your comrade-in-arms is one who administers torture, one would wonder if he/she were not a sadist, etc..
To those, such as Sen. McCain, who suffered so many torturous years, it would be repulsive, as it is to me. To those who are professionals involved in obtaining information from prisoners and who claim it is not effective, I have only one question, "Are you saying, never? Never?"
No, I'm sure that if we captured a group which had a cache of vials of a deadly virus hidden in New York or Los Angeles, we'd question our own sanity in following such a policy, because then we'd be living in a Cool-aide society. Like Socrates, we're willing to drink the Hemlock, but then, we're making that fatal decision for all the others too.
Meanwhile, the "other side" has not renounced torture and we don't know how costly our decision might be for us.
I'm not advocating the use of torture, I'm not taking the high moral ground either.
Only time will give us the answer, but it could well be the wrong one.

Listening to BO use the same words as George Bush and have folks cheer as if they've just heard the words for the first time makes me want to hurl.

This man wouldn't know the truth if it bit him on the rear end. Our men and women in uniform have been accused of all kinds of terrible things and BO has been the cheer leader for this kind of despicable behavior.
Suddenly Michael you believe HIM?

The Michael Ratner led Center for Constitutional Rights has already declared that if we move the Gitmo detainees to maximum-security prisons or provide them anything less than full due process that would amount to torture. I'd go further in my predictions: adjudicated or not, our stateside detention centers, prosecutions, and indefinite detentions will soon be decried as Obama's gulags; from al Qaeda's mouths', to sheepƒ??s' ears, via the lawyer Rat-line, and the media echo chamber.

Virtually every past and present Guantanamo detainee claims to have been tortured. Yet from all the reports I have read, I estimate the previous administration authorized coercive interrogation techniques beyond the Army Field Manual on at most 30 jihadists. With due respect, Michael, that propaganda should have been countered all along with a steady stream of war porn, graphic evidence of al Qaeda's butchery.

Hey, I just remembered that 35 years ago today I arrived at Ft Dix for BT. We should have brought Drill Sergeants Preston, Hardy, and Mendosa (God bless them all) out of retirement to interrogate the detainees. LOL!

The United States currently has enemies willing to murder Americans by the tens of thousands without remorse. And when these enemies capture Americans they are willing to subject us to the most vile tortures imaginable - not for any information they may get from us, but simply from the fact that they see us as "the infidel." To them, we are unclean and can be butchered in any manner whatsoever.

The United States government's official position with respect such enemies should be that it will do whatever it takes to protect its citizens. Whatever it takes. That, and nothing else. Anything less is capitulation to the enemy and gives the enemy an advantage he should never have.

Imagine a scenario where a group of terrorists are releasing biological agents in our cities. 25,000 die in New York. Then 15,000 in Los Angeles. Then 30,000 in Chicago. No one knows where they're going to strike next. The FBI suddenly gets a break and in a shootout with the group manage to capture one, but the others get away. It is imperative that the FBI find out where the next attack will be as quickly as possible. That means they must use whatever means necessary to get that information from the captive. In such a situation, it is not moral strength to say, "We will not resort to torture to protect our citizens." It is the height of immorality. It is the willing sacrifice of the good and the innocent for the evil - and for some misguided notion of the "sanctity of every human life," or some other such nonsense. It is moral cowardice.

I take exception to your remark that we have now moved to the high ground.

We have not tortured anyone and you make it sound like we have. When and Where?

I hate to see you drinking the kool-aid with the rest of the Messiah worshipers.

But I would also add that the definition of torture must be well written and must include only that which reasonable people would consider torture. Mock executions, threats of death, and putting someone in certain degrees of discomfort do not, in my opinion, constitute torture.

Never worked out how I got on your mailing list but I normally delete your emails in digust. Having said that I am writing this to say I havnt agreed more with anything I've read for a long time. The world needs to be able to believe in what the US is supposed to stand for.

All you need to do now is stop calling real human beings 'Terrorists' as if that makes killing them OK, or start using the term to describe your guys as well.

There is one truth about President Obama, that whatever he says the opposite will happen.


High ground?


We are funding abortion worldwide; America is now worse than China when it comes to human rights.

Obama is accusing America up to this point of using torture. What a load of garbage. It is a harmful lie, spoken out of maliciousness towards his domestic political opposition. Michael, you are far to generous to see good in this, almost to the point of being duped.

Personally, I think we SHOULD be willing to use torture, in the rare case that it is called for, but the fact is we have not been using it.

Mr Yon, please don't announce your surprise when President Obama slashes the defense budget in order to pay for all the carrots he will be buying for America's enemy; $900 million to Hamas is only the beginning of this 'peace in our time'.


This is America's standing in the world now; we appease. Have you noticed that the rest of the world is talking loudly about 'killing Jews'?

America's military men and women are now just as alone in the world as is poor Israel because of this pronounce of 'moral standing'; America will betray everything she represents in order to placate an illusion, just as America betrayed the Pope when President Obama overturned the Mexico City law.

I hope you pay close attention to what is said and done at the United Nations Mr. Yon, I want you to remember what became of our democratic ally Israel because of President Obama's 'high ground'.

America has no more moral standing than does the UN, the EU, China, North Korea, Venezuela, Mexico, or Saudi Arabia.

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These comments are almost always made by ignorant people just banging their own drum and closing their minds totally to anything they don't feel fits in with their chosen way of thinking. As always Mr Yon rises above this type of schoolboy political discussion and sticks to the simple realities. I love the fact that this is upsetting the right wingers and that his other posts upsets the left wingers. It's time to throw of the shackles of being left or right, Republican or Democrat, Labour or Conservative - look at each issue at face value, do your own research, f##k the politicians and make your own mind up!

Whilst easy to dismiss as a bullsh#tter, for me Obama has done the right thing on this occasion - world politics, like many other aspects of life, is about perception. The US is perceived to have used torture whether true or not I don't know. By saying that you will no longer use it and then being squeaky clean from now on, Obama will make a huge step towards changing that perception. That will remove a large amount of ammo that the terrorists need to encourage others to support them. Unfortunately the terrorists are very good at propaganda and our poor quality press/media seem always happy to jump on a anti-US/anti-west story which only winds up the Muslims and causes us more problems in the long run.

A baby torn apart in the womb feels tremendous pain. President Obama fully supports abortion with no limitations per the FOCA (Freedom Of Choiice Act). How does this give him the moral high ground?

People, especially those on the Left, need to get something. Obama is a politician. He did not get where he is by being stupid. If his people capture Ahmad the Beheader, and have reason to believe that Ahmad knows where and when the next Beslan-style attack on an Elementary School will take place in the CONUS (say, in a Swing State full of Registered Voters), then Ahmad the Beheader wil be waterboarded. Period.

Democracy isn't a suicide pact. He'll simply contract the job out to the Jordanians in return for some shiny new F-35's.

And the press will give him a pass. It's easy to get things done when your name isn't Bush.

Why is there no public outcry from the Human Rights groups regarding the torture of the coalition forces by the Taliban, Hamas, Sunni's, Shia, and the Islamic courts.

There are two reasons:

1. Most if not all captured US and Coalition soldiers are tortured and murdered on the spot and not sent to prisons where the Human rights groups can monitor their condition.

2. The Qur'an and Hadiths instruct the Islamist warriors to kill all who take up the sword against Islam. - without exception. For the non-combatants they have the choice to convert to Islam, pay the Jizya(protectio n money), or be killed. Very simple, direct, and easy to understand.

The Qur'an and Hadith also allows our enemy to practice Taqiyya and Kitman (lieing and misdirection) on the enemy. Take the infidel as your friend if it will give you an advantage to destroy them later. All treaties with the Kaffur/Infidel/non-Muslim can be broken at anytime when it is to the Islamists advantage.

KNOW YOUR ENEMY, KNOW YOURSELF

Read the Qur'an, Hadith, and Sunnah. It probably will not make any sense so go to www.prophetofdoom.org and Craig Winn deconstructs the Qur'an.

Join ACT! For America (a 501c4 corporation) and get involved at the local level to first understand who are enemy is and what they want of and from us in the West,North, East, and South

As a Vietnam veteran, I can attest to the absolute NEED for immediate tactical intelligence gathering to save lives. I've seen waterboarding and weapons fired close to the heads of 'prisoners' (combatants captured on the field during contact) to gain information that saved our platoon. In all cases, the prisoners were alive, in one piece, and later moved to a POW compound.

As a morally pursuasive argument held in the safety of one's livingroom, or classroom, yes, torture, unevenly understood, is a grand thing indeed. The reality, once on the ground, is another matter. No amount of moralizing can convince an understrength platoon, under fire, close to being overrun, and desperatly looking for an escape route, that non lethal adversive interroation methods are wrong.

Gotta respect Yon, but I wonder why he's so lost in philosophic asthetics and not grounded in the reality of violent, battlefield survival which we all know he's been so intimate with. Why, Michael, why?

So I guess that by announcing "no torture" we can assume that the terrorist are jubilant this morning. So Mr Yon, what is your alternative. Should we invite them over for tea and have a civil conversation?

As far as the Freedom of Choice Act. I do find it ironic that if a baby is in a womb, it can be murdered. Maybe we should then sedate our terrorist friends first, so they don't feel the pain. Then yank them out of there temporary sleep and into reality. Isn't that what Obama is suggesting if an infant survives the abortion. Murder the innocent and protect the terrorists.

While torture can conceivably be useful as a tactical weapon, it is a huge strategic mistake and in the long run weakens our ability to garner and maintain support for our cause. Without domestic and international support, we end up encouraging support of our enemies and aid them in their recruiting efforts.

Why has Jane Fonda been vilified and shunned by most of America for decades? Because of her support for a regime that provided encouragement and support from the highest levels for the torture and mistreatment of our soldiers during the vietnam war. While the world will not always agree with our stand on issues around the globe, they can at least understand why we fight against evil - at least until we begin to look and act no differently than the "bad guys".

There will always be incidents of abuse of prisoners of war. But overt condoning of mistreatment of prisoners under our control is something that should bring shame and embarrassment each and every time it happens. And it certainly should never be authorized as a standard operating procedure from the highest office in the country.

Hi Michael,

I have been a fan and supporter of your work for a long time, but this comment left me confused. How can we win unless we're prepared to do whatever it takes? Our enemies are NOT playing by our rules, and our refusal to be tough with them is seen as weakness and will be taken advantage of. And let's be honest... It IS a weakness. Say there's a thug out there who knows for sure when and where the next major terrorist attack is going to take place, but is refusing to talk. You know this attack with claim thousands of lives unless stopped. You do not have time to sit there and hope to reason with the thug. WHAT DO YOU DO? What would you do if it's your own family that's being threatened? Of course you would do whatever it takes. Why, then, should we not behave the same way when it comes to the country as a whole?

Another point is, how do you define torture? I would agree that medieval Inquisition-style torture should have no place in modern society. But placing a suspect into a bright room and subjecting him to constant questioning while withholding food and sleep? That's not torture, that's common sense.

These people commit unthinkable acts of cruelty and injustice towards other human beings. We're not talking about torturing someone for fun a-la Abu Ghraib, or torturing someone in order to learn where they stashed the robbery money. We're talking about stopping despicable and unrepentant criminals from committing more horrific crimes against humanity. You can't cure these people with puppies and sunshine. And they aren't going to suddenly change their ways just because we decided to treat them nice.

Get tough, and stay tough, or loose the fight. Simple as that.

I think there is an impass of definitions regarding "torture." Torture I think is the inflicting of pain and injury for pure sport or vindictiveness - what the terrorists obviously engage in. But interrogation is a different matter and depends on the exigencies of the situation as a fellow commentator has said. When the israelis suffer an abduction of one of their soldiers, they find out fast who has him and where he is. Who can blame them as response time is critical to retrieving him. What passes for torture, waterboarding or stress positions is on about the same level as college fraternity hazing and I doubt more severe than the escape and evasion exercises practiced by the Seals and Rangers some of whom have died during these exercises. The British have used psychological stress by distorting an IRA prisoner's sense of time. He doesn't know if he's been in isolation weeks, months or years. In one instance an IRA who was difficult to break was allowed to read minutely fabircated newspapers one of which contained a fradulent obiturary for his family who were supposedly all killed in a car crash. He broke. Bottom line as far as I'm concerned is actionable intelligence that saves lives. If President Obame's daughters were going to be kidnapped and executed and torture was the only way to gain the intelligence to preempt the kidnapping, would he be willing to sacrifice his own children on the alter of his convictions?

I pray there are some Jack Bauers and some Mitch Rapps out there. I don't agree with the type of torture the terrorists use, but I believe intense interrogation is sometimes totally necessary in order to prevent the type of massive terrorist attacks such as we saw on 9/11 and such as the Israelis live with every day.

My concern with President Obama is his speeches seem to be written to sound profound while leaving out substance.

His plans to manage the deficit do not reflect anything like reality. He announces a plan to halve the deficit in the same year he increased it by $1 trillion dollars. His foreign policy so far is more notable in it's absence than in it's accomplishments . Given posturing and threats from North Korea, Sec State Clinton announced that she personally did not believe North Korea could enrich urianium (in apparent disagreement with virtually everyone else).

Russia is signing weapons supply agreements with Iran and expanding security arrangements and we say nary a word about it.
They also announced that they will build a naval base in Abkhazia, an province in another country which is in rebellion, and who's government is recognized by nobody.

Russia "in self defense" moves mobile missiles to the border of Poland after we deployed an ABM battery there. People do not understand the technology involved. An ABM has no offensive power. If you set off an ABM next to a T72 tank, it wold likely not disable the tank. If you set off a nuke on an Iskander missile, you would destroy an entire city. Our response? "well really we made no response. however we have announced that defence spending will be reduced...
To me, this feels like ... 1935... pacifist posturing, defense cuts, inward looking policies bordering on socialism, while potential opponents gain in strength and confidence.

Russians turn off the gas in Ukraine, Obama's response, silence. Russias message? to Ukraine, "none of your friends in the west will help you" to the West "we can turn off your heat whenever we want, remember this when you set your foreign policy".

In Iraq, Obama set a timetable to leave. I hope he is right. Bush handed him a victory in Iraq. It isn't too late for him to turn it into a defeat.

Pakistan's new government is showing itself to be weak and indecisive. I hope a stronger role in Afghanistan helps resolve this situation... I hope Obama can stay the course and that the military has decisive leadership on the battlefield.

And on Torture Michael, I have followed your articles for years. I think we need to define what torture is and work within that framework.

Michael thankyou for being a voice of reason that helps filter out the shrill political rhetoric.

Michael,

I have followed you for as long as I can remember. I have read your book, I have passed your web site along to those who I thought would find it interesting. I find this post disturbing. I agree with all of those who have stated that there needs to be a definition of torture but I ask you this, would BHO support his no torture policy if someone he loved was being held by a terrorist and their life was threatened? I think not! Just like everyone of us, if one of our loved ones were being threatened and the authorities had someone in their control who could provide the information to find them, we all would want any means necessary used to get said information. This is a hypothetical situation but there are soldiers out there whose lives are threatened every day by the thugs and terrorists. Any non Muslim is in the crosshairs of the terrorists!!! This is like his brilliant statement that he would sit down and talk with Iran in the hopes of reaching an agreement. You know, the idiot who claims the Holocaust never occured?? The mad man who would wipe Israel off the face of the map and who would have no qualms about obliterating America. I do not agree with bamboo under the nails and extreme pain but I can assure you that if someone I loved was in danger I would use whatever means possible to bring them back safely. Don't take torture off the table. Define it and then use it with discretion. BHO taking the high ground? No. BHO is a puppet to the special interests.

God Speed Michael...we will agree to disagree on this issue!

What do I think, you ask? Well, Michael,...

I have been a fan of your writing, and appreciate the service you have done our servicemembers by your fair and balanced reporting, and sharing their stories and experiences with the rest of America. But I have to say how extremely disappointed I am by this pacifist stance you've suddenly aquired. I have never seen you express concern before in your writings regarding "torture", and I wonder why you are suddenly choosing to do so now.

Surely, you must recognize by now, that our world is one governed by those nations that are willing and capable of using force. In a world that must be shared with evil-doers, a nation cannot secure peace for itself without being willing to exert force to protect its citizens. When we are faced with an enemy willing send out individuals hopped up on drug-induced frenzies into gatherings of innocent bystanders, and who are hell-bent on the mission of massacring hundreds, if not thousands, of innocent people in a 9/11-like attack, or single blast, you cannot afford to give these terrorists their creature comforts and Miranda rights. We are dealing a different beast here. These terrorists play on a whole different playing field than the nations who agreed to sign the Geneva Conventions. Did Al-Quaida give PFC Menchaca or PFC Tucker (God Bless their souls) their creature comforts, or read them their Miranda rights, before they "barbarically" tortured them to death??? NO!!! What we are dealing with evilness, terrorists are an organization of individuals just as sadistic as Hitler and the Nazi's, and all they understand is violence. You don't "talk" to these people. The liberal media hates to report it, but most of these terrorists who were released from prison we are now finding have all returned back to their terrorist organizations, they're not "reformed."

Mr. Yon, you do such a wonderful job of reporting the stories and experiences of the millitary in Iraq and Afghanistan. Please, stop sipping the Obama kool-aid, and just stick to reporting the facts.

Terrorists deserve the rights of ununiformed combatants, and nothing more nor less. In the politicians' feverish attempt to prove how morally superior they are, they have shortsightedly and irresponsibly granted habeas corpus rights to these vermin. Incredible! Utterly devoid of commonsense! Do terrorists deserve being "tortured?" No one does. But, I do wish someone in authoriity --and morally superior to me--would clearly define what exactly torture is to them. Defining torture has been as tortured as the classic meaning of torture itself has been. Sleep deprivation and "tortures" of that ilk are NOT torture. AND, finally, this: if my famlily members' lives hung in the balance, I would personally have no compunctions about the use of ANY kind of torture to protect them. Any kind of torture. Anyone who espouses a different view in such an instance is either lying or is mentally deficiient. We all need to get a grip on reality. And that inane mantra that if we torture terrorists our troops who fall in terrorists' hand are at greater risk of being tortured. Give me a break. They'll be brutally tortured anyway, and then summarily beheaded. Delusional people in charge of my security is terrifying. What happened to commonsense in this Socialist Republic of America? Well, I guess I just answered my own question.

Michael, You're an ex-SF soldier, weren't you ever waterboarded in your training? I was and it may have been unpleasant but it certainly didn't cause me any lasting harm. Get off the Obama bandwagon and get back to your truth in reporting, this doesn't become you.

We are so screwed.................

Michael, as a WWII fighter pilot I have been very appreciative of your reporting. However, on this one I am in disagreement with you and your president (he is not mine). Nevertheless, please continue what you have been doing so well.

What is 'support for torture'? I wouldn't endorse pulling out fingernails if a prisoner wouldn't give you his unit ID; but I would if extensive interrogation povided no help in deterring an impending massive terrorist undertaking. Common sense? Survival instinct? The high ground doesn't do you much good after you're dead...and saying you're against ALL torture is ridiculous. It just gives your enemy another weapon.F9g

Sorry Michael, wrong on this one. Torture is in the eye of the behoder and the left (including your President) used it as a hammer to undermine our actions in Iraq & Afganistan. I went through torutre in boot camp (I was yelled at and verbably berated). Where do we draw the line between intense questioning (which I believe we used and are still using) and "torture"? Please define torture befor charging anyone with it! Waterboarding isn't torture, simulated and actual beheadings are!

Above are 3 soldiers who where tortured and killed by AQ and It's surrogates. They died horrific deaths at the hands of these monsters. SPC Keith M. Maupin was captured and killed and his remains were not Identified for over 4 years for the sole purpose of tormenting his family and Using the Liberal media to show that we were weak.
This is what happened to the two other soldiers. Maj. Gen. William B. Caldwell IV, the American military spokesman, said "the remains" of what are believed to be the two Americans were found near a power plant in the vicinity of Yusefiya, about three miles from the site were they had been captured by insurgents. General Caldwell declined to speak in detail about the physical condition of those who had been found, but said that the cause of death could not be determined. He said the remains of the men would be sent to the United States for DNA testing to determine definitively their identities. That seemed to suggest that the two Americans had been wounded or mutilated beyond recognition.
What we are dealing with is a global struggle In which there Is no bargaining or dealing with these people.Unlike the American and Eurotrash media, These Zealots do not have a timetable and they play the long game. They slowly but surely multiply their numbers like rats and poison from within. Europe is rapidly losing the fight from within. Britain Is letting Muslims use Sharia law In certain areas and actually paying terrorists under watch unemployment benefits. France has opened It's eyes to a nightmare and is realizing that is too late.
I am not a person who endorses torture, But waterboarding and other non permanent coercive measures to deal with these animals is a must. Khalid Sheik Mohammed the alleged mastermind behind 9-11, After waterboarding he gave up many sources that proved to save many many American lives. As an ex SFO pointed out that he was waterboarded during training and suffered no Ill affects. Wake up America and stop drinking happy thoughts Cool Aid!
And why the hell are we giving Hamas 900 million to rebuild a terrorist infrastructure that the Our Israeli allies just destroyed? The Israeli's should not have stopped until every last Hamas member was dead. Then turn To Hezbollah and then the real enemies Iran and Saudi Arabia.

Intestinal fortitude is not in most people vocabulary or limited patriotism everything should be candy and skipping through fields holding hands ( well it isn't people!) people have always fought for one reason or another.

One more comment about Pres. Obama and the "high ground".
From many indications, neither he nor his supporters took the high ground during the election; it was Illinois/Chicago political tactics all over again, but this time spread around the nation.
Now, that's a form of torture to those of us who believe in the "high ground" too. However, it is just as wrong to stand and proclaim to the world, and especially the enemy, what to expect, such as the royal treatment when captured, because once again it gives them an advantage with little or no upside to it.
I'm all for winning friends in Iraq and Afghanistan, but this morning's paper announced that a roadside bomb killed four of my brave and dedicated countrymen in Iraq, and had I captured the s.o.b.s who had planted that bomb and could have saved those soldier's lives by learning where it was buried, I might just figure out where the most sensitive part of their body was and apply a little pressure, and risk Obama's wrath and ten years in prison. I'm sure that their families would thank me. I know that I would have not suffered remorse over my act had it saved their lives.
Now, that goes against my beliefs, true, but not only do I believe in self-preservation, but national preservation.

Something is wrong with this picture. Only in America do we condone the torture and murder of innocent babies but oppose the torture of terrorists, whose sole purpose on earth is to conquer and destroy the world.

I'm a little disappointed in some of these comments above. It sounds like some our Military have forgotton what American is about. We are suppose to have higher values and we live by laws. I served in Vietnam and anyone that waterboarded was prosecuted. At that time waterboarding was not allowed. My father was a wounded vet. And in his time anyone who waterboarded was also prosecuted. In fact up until Bush time in office waterboarding was against the Law. After WW 11 there were large trials for torturing lead my America.

I understand that sometimes frustration get's to you. My platoon seargent who was in another unit at the time cut off a vietcong head. He went from 1st sergent to an E-6 for that. He was a great man but you have to live by laws and have higher morals than your enemy.

Don't forget that in my time in Vietnam they had terrorist who used kids and women to kill. They used cars, shoe boxes, taxies cabs to destroy hotels and people but we still went by the military manual and the rule of law.

From what I have read above some of our Military have lost there moral high ground. American Soldiers have lost there lives in lot's of wars but they have always had higher morals then the people they fought against.

This war is nothing new it has been going on since we have been a nation, they just change the name of it. But it looks like political leaning has blured the line of morals and the rule of law.

The real criminality here is that people in the USA from Defense lawyers for the Abbu Ghrab (SP) troops and Guantanamo and politicians of all persuasions have blown this out of all proportion. In doing so they lent credance to all the ratbag international organizations and countries who take every opportunity to bellittle the USA.

What is wrong with people who do not want to see the truth. Obama has left the door open to everything that went on before based upon circumstances. Just another slimy politician.

If we obligated ourselves to all international agreements regarding abuse while in custody every police force in the country would be in breach. Basically, you cannot even talk to people if they do not want to talk to you.

You really need to know what the US agreed to when it signed on to these international agreements:

"The United Nations General Assembly enacted a Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment in 1984;

The US accepted with a number of caveats, including the following:

ƒ??That with reference to article 1, the United States understands that, in order to constitute torture, an act must be specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering and that mental pain or suffering refers to prolonged mental harm caused by or resulting from (1) the intentional infliction or threatened infliction of severe physical pain or suffering; (2) the administration or application, or threatened administration or application, of mind altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or the personality; (3) the threat of imminent death; or (4) the threat that another person will imminently be subjected to death, severe physical pain or suffering, or the administration or application of mind altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or personality.'

The caveat does seem to leave the US `with a lot of lattitude.

What most people fail to realize Is that Al Qaeda Is a terrorist organization that has no borders, Nationality or morals. They are scum of the earth and not entitled to any protection under International law. The US has wrongfully decided that they are entitled these protections. They have have the right to be captured Interrogated and then shot. In any previous war someone caught as a saboteur or behind enemy lines would fully expect to be shot.
What happened at Abu Ghraib was a shame and those Involved should have been punished. This was a limited problem and occurred because poorly trained people were not supervised. Most of those photos came from one night and the same group of Idiots that brought disgrace to the uniform that they wear. The Liberal media seized upon this as the perfect opportunity to portray all Americans as Immoral and caused the Arab world and So called European Allies to have a non stop hissy fit. This caused the death of hundreds if not thousands Of US soldiers. Thank You Ted Kennedy. When the US turned over the prison to the Iraqi's, The prisoners begged for the Americans to come back, Because they knew they would have to face the fathers and brothers of the men and women they had murdered.
Our so called Apostate President says the US does not torture. But has made one of his top priorities Abortion on demand.
US troops are the most professional disciplined fighting force In the world. But for years they have been attacked by extremists encouraged openly by the Democrats and Liberal wackjobs like George Soros for the sole purpose of political gain.
Stop drinking the juice and wake up! Pelosi and the cult of personality that follow the Messiah are Intent on socialism. Idolatry is what It is. This is not North Korea, look what Idolatry has gotten them.

By "torture" I presume you mean waterboarding. Sorry, but I have to agree with Dennis Miller here: Waterboarding is a gift from God. Think about it. A technique that will make a suicidal terrorist, who is willing to give his life for his cause, confess his secrets in a timely manner without doing any permanent physical damage. It's a miracle that we have such a technique and that it works so effectively. But now we are going to throw it away.

1 Tuesday, 24 February 2009 23:34 Josh

"As a HUMINT'r who was deployed to AF, I couldn't agree with you more on this. Torture comes from the frustration of immaturity or the sense of power it gives someone. It has no place in our society, one which should be a beacon for the rest of the world. Thanks so much for the work you're doing. "


Josh, I'm sorry but, I have to disagree with you. I take it you are a military HUMINT guy, probably Army. I have never tortured anyone, as I am not allowed to, and not "qualified" to do it.

I think that under certain circumstances, for certain ends, and only on certain types of people, torture IS effective. It is not the preferred method. However, there are people out there, "true believers," that just won't break. Some people won't break through any non violent approach, some won't break even with torture. Rocky Versace didn't, and he was one of us. Torture works fast, or not at all. I for one think it is IMMORAL to not torture someone if time is of the essence and lives are at stake.

KSM broke through waterboarding, period. You cannot say that "torture" isn't effective. It often is. Saying that people will feed you bad information is a cop out.

We can take the moral high ground. Fine, but when you commit to the act of WAR, you are KILLING people. When you've reached that point, it is stupid to think that anything else you do to someone before they surrender as a whole can be worse than the fact that you are killing them and sometimes innocent people. We, as Americans, think we can stand above everyone else in the world and follow a convention signed in a foreign nation when the only country that fully adheres to it is the USA. We have, and will continue to do that, but it will get more people killed.

I don't think the strategic implications of America being viewed as a nation that totures are as important as the perception of America being a nation that you don't start **** with.

"It is well that war is so horrible, lest we become too fond of it."

David, by saying ...

"NO Politician has the BALLS. No Leaders has the BALLS to go with and work along side the soldiers"

... I guess you're including not only Obama, but the likes of Bush, Reagan and even Eisenhower and Teddy Roosevelt. Is that right?

And it looks to me like a lot of right wingers are doing plenty of brainwashing on themselves, just like they accuse those on the left. I see a LOT of parroting going on here. How about thinking for yourself for a change, like Michael does?

Having served in the Marine Corps for 22 years, I often thought that there were times when torture, however abhorrent, that torture would be a military necessity. Not the kind of torture they conducted at Abu Ghraib, but interrogation techniques used to gain information through physical and mental anguish. I have read what you have posted here on torture and the articles you have written before and I believe now that you are right. There can be no room for torture in our military and we can only take the high road here. Thank you, Michael, for helping me see that light. I am no Obama fan but I agree with you here, he is right.

We lost an average of 26 people per minute - my brother-in-law among them - on 9/11, from 1st hijacking through when the North Tower fell. As a date rate, that works out to 13,665,600 per year, which far surpasses our actual American dead, civilian and military, due to all the wars and conflicts in our history combined. And they did not need WMD to achieve that rate.

Torture should not be our stated policy yet it damn well better be the policy we will use if necessary to prevent another 9/11 or worse from happening here again.

The things President Obama named in his speech will take years to implement, you say? Let us pray. The loss of what my family holds dear, however, is happening hourly and at a breakneck pace. We are terrified about the future of our wonderful country, the last best place on earth. In addition, for the president and you to imply that torture is the USA's standard operating practice is distasteful in the extreme. I have been your supporter for a long time, Michael, but your comments of 2/24 break my heart. The "high ground" is not a territory this new administration has visited or even mapped. Alas.

I see the arm chair generals are out in force. Please note the following:

1/ The US _has_ waterboarded prisoners.
2/ Waterboarding is torture (as defined by the Geneva Convention and indeed by Christopher Hitchens)
3/ All current and ex military persons posting in this thread agree that torture doesnt wrk
4/ The only persons advocating torture are the arm chair tough guys.

As a non American I can tell you that if you did have torture on the books, it would lower my view of your country's superior moral position in the War on Terror. Rememeber- never wrestle a pig, the pig will enjoy it and you will end up filthy.

Treyt

Respectfully, I disagree with Michael Yon and his defenders on this issue.

1. Torture is not defined. It would help the discussion if everyone stuck to this, or something like it: inflicting extreme pain (of whatever kind) to secure information in order to defeat the enemy. With this understanding, torture is not Abu Ghraib (that is unauthorized hooliganism with no military purpose); b) torture is not vengeance, retribution, or punishment on or off the battlefield, undertaken by soldiers as a personal decision (that ƒ?? however understandable in certain circumstances ƒ?? is unjustified taking the law into oneƒ??s own hands).
2. ƒ??Moral high groundƒ? is not defined. Neither Michael Yon nor his defenders give any reason why it is morally superior to our enemies to refrain from the use of force to acquire information. And why is torture (as defined) worse than killing or wounding the enemy in order to defeat him?
4. ƒ??No useful information is ever gained through torture.ƒ? This is only asserted, not proven, or even substantiated.
5. ƒ??The use of torture will improve the opinion held about us by the people who might otherwise become our enemies.ƒ? This is a wish not a fact. It is a particularly myopic wish since every country that might become our enemy already uses torture and has no respect for human rights anyway. And, even if it were a fact, would it be a militarily relevant fact? You cannot evaluate this in the present context of the current apologetic, self-flagellating military policies. You must compare it to what a proper military policy would be ƒ?? i.e., resolute, uncompromising, self-righteous, as in WWII.
The implication is that the terrorists would not themselves use torture if not for our use first, and that our torture is their best ƒ??recruitment toolƒ?; instead, I believe that radical Islam and lifelong brainwashing are their best recruitment tools, which have nothing to do with our torture policies at all.

When the US military trains soldiers to resist interrogation, it uses a technique from the Middle Ages, known as "waterboarding". This should but wont put to rest the debate over how the Us should handle AQ detainees who are not entitled to any protection under the Geneva convention. Michael's own excellent work shows these so called jihaadists to be drug addicted sexual and moral deviants that are affront to God and the Koran. These animals do not represent any country or people or religion. As a civilized country and the standard bearer for the rest of the world we have a duty to take the moral high ground and throughout both wars our brave Soldiers and Marines have continued to do so. They few Instances where people were out of line were exposed and prosecuted. Waterboarding is not torture. Used properly It causes the detainee no lasting harm and can result In a great deal of information that we never had received from a high value detainee. Khalid Sheik Mohammed gave up vital Information that saved thousands of American and British lives. Obama's shameless grandstanding was a national disgrace and only emboldens our enemies. When the first nuke or dirty bomb detonates in Baltimore, DC or Los Angeles the finger pointing will start and the questions will fly as to how could this have happened. Right now the border with Mexico is run by Drug cartels. We are searching old women at airports and letting Narco-Terrorists control our borders. We are up against an enemy that does not have moral limits, Term limits or nonsensical political ambitions. Iran Is close to having a bomb that may be crude by our standards but devastating if used on American soil. Pakistan is collapsing, North Korea would gladly sell one of their nukes for the right price. The former Soviet Union has lost control of many of It's weapons. It is only a matter of time before they acquire a nuclear device and use it. They have already acquired biological weapons In the form of the virus that killed 10s of millions in Europe called the Black death. This was discovered recently In Algeria only when their own ignorance exposed and killed dozens of AQ members. Most of you never read about this because the media is In Kool Aid mode and not going to print the truth about the dangers we face. If the US Government was taken out with one bomb The country would not survive. New Orleans fell completely apart In less than one day without Government control. I am glad the new president has focused on Afghanistan and Pakistan because as long as these maggots are allowed to breath the more Inevitable this scenario will become. We have to get it right every time, They only have to do It once. they have already showed the discipline and planning that spanned multiple Administrations . American media and politicians do not have the patience or the courage to commit to doing what It takes to defeat such an enemy. The TV show Jericho showed how quickly things would fall apart without government for even a brief time. It was only a fictional scenario but do not think that our enemies have not learned from that scenario. Our enemy has It's stated goal to be the complete destruction and the worldwide spread of radical Islam. They have already succeeded In taking controls of the hearts and minds of millions In Europe who see America as the bad guy. There is only one freely elected Muslim goverment in the Middle East and that Is in Iraq. Despite all odds we are close to succeeding and having a permanent friendly democratic government In the Middle East. This is not lost on our enemies or so called allies like Saudi Aarabia. This is not a right vs left arguement , This is a war for our very survival and It is fine time we started treating it like one.

Thank You, Feel free to send that to anyone who will or will not listen. I did not post that to be an alarmist or cause people to live In fear but we have to stop living in the land of make believe. Bill Clinton offered the Palestinians the best deal they would ever get. They answered with suicide bombs and elected Hamas. Clinton also gave North Korea everything that they wanted, Fuel, Food & money, And they still managed to build nuclear weapons! I am not blaming Clinton but pointing out that our enemies will gladly negotiate with us and still plan our destruction. In 4 years I think people will Long for "W".

Torture is an emotionally charged word that means different things to different people. If torture meant the physical abuse from burning someone, or pulling out their nails, or other physical harm, then I am against it. If torture means some waterboarding, or listening to heavy metal music, or depriving someone of sleep, then I am not against it.

Our enemies at al Q use our aversion of torture as a tool against us. They say they were tortured in detention just like a criminal claims police brutality when they attack an officer and are beaten to be subdued. It plays to the press. It is a tool of war in their kit that they can use. Our humanity is our weakness in our eyes.

President Obama may or may not feel sincere about this. He may be using it as a political way of getting world opiniionƒ?› brownie points.

The danger that our country faces by theses terrorists is not conveyed properly to our public. Our governmental leaders cannot communicate worth beans, and our so-called free press falls flat on its face.

Our enemies, however, have found a simple word that can make us go crazy with guilt, even though we are not torturers. We are chumps.

Watch the hands and not the mouths. Applies to defense against potential thug attackers and applies to our current crop of politicians.

As someone who has followed your dispatches for some time, bought your book, and has introduced many friends to your work, I was disappointed to read this dispatch, but wanted to give you time to further explain yourself. Your follow-up email (pasted below) does not address the concerns that I share with numerous other people commenting on this topic. Can you please state how you define torture? If you define it as inflicting massive amounts of pain, e.g. yanking people's fingernails out, are you then implying that US interrogators have been conducting this sort of business? Those are serious charges and should come with a hefty dose of evidence. Or are you saying we shouldn't make AQ Terrorists listen to heavy metal music if they don't want to? Somewhere in between?

You should carefully explain this, I think a lot of your supporters hang in the balance. I'm one of them.

"Those who propose that the United States should use wholesale torture are clueless about the realities we face, and in fact their words make them out to be no better than our enemies. Many people seem to believe that by using torture we prove we are tough. Some would disagree. Our enemies use torture yet we stack their bodies high."

Commanding the high moral ground is a must to win a war against an ideology. Torture of prisoner swells the ranks of Al Queda. Killing thugs and criminal, wins hearts and minds. When we send one innocent man to Abu grab torture and humiliate him then send him home a couple months later, and we create 10 more Al Queda recruits. How can we win war on radical terror if we are seen as the terrorist.

I realize that you have gotten some serious flak for saying things as they are, but I appreciate the efforts to provide a clear view of the conflict. Keep up the good work

There are plenty of hypotheticals wherein I would totally support any number of extreme treatments, including virulent forms of torture.

If I was in command of some 19 year old kids who were picked up by AQ somehow, and I had a prisoner whom I had reason to believe had an idea where they were, and knowing full well that those kids were going to be tortured and killed brutally, the results later to be posted on the internet for that kids mom, grandmother and sisters to see, you can be sure as shit I'd blow that little bastards knee-caps off to get the information I needed.

I'd pull out his fingernails, I'd do whatever it took if those kids were my responsibility.

I'd would much rather have to spend my life in an Afghan prison than know I didn't do what it took to protect my men from such a fate.

I'm glad you have such moral clarity, Yon, that you'd send troops in to fight savages like al Qaeda, but tie our forces' hands when it really mattered.

Michael,

I really enjoy your reporting and your insight. I respectfully differ with you only in the sense that you salute President Obama for taking the "moral high ground." You are mistaken, Mr. Obama is merely pandering to his base. If he really wanted to eliminate torture he would eliminate rendition, but he has not done so and has quietly made clear that he will not do so. He wants credit for eliminating torture while reserving for himself the latitude to do what is necessary when he needs to (which, ironically, is the right call). I know you are an idealist (as I am), but the reality is that when you are fighting sadists and murderers like Al Qaeda, if you want to WIN, sometimes you will have to do things that are perhaps not morally unimpeachable, but that are nevertheless necessary, and, in fact, vital.

I guess it's ok that we drop a bomb and accept the collateral damage. We will accept the bloody broken little arms and legs. But we have a problem with playing Barney music to get info out of a terrorist? Come on, wheres the higher ground? If we can discomfort a bad guy so we don't have to drop that bomb, I truly believe that is the higher ground here. I think you are compartmentaliz ing this issue. In the broad scheme, it is our moral obligation to get this info out of these guys. I think the Afgan family would be very thankful to us if we did. Just think of it as a part of COIN.
Thanks for what you are doing. I have learned much from you and similar blogs. I try to spread the word to however will listen to me.

What if your "belief" that your prisoner had the knowledge of the location of your young men was "wrong"? You are human?

So you torture the prisoner and he gives you bad intel to stop the interrogation, the torture which you inflicted upon him. You check out the intel and, of course, your men aren't found because the prisoner DID NOT KNOW. When and where do you draw the line? So do you continue the torture? Do you end up killing him, an innocent victim? I know that you believe that he is guilty...as guilty as sin. Where do you draw the line? Are you the Almighty? I guess so since might makes right.

So I'd like to understand the moral clarity of the TORTURE of INFANTS to extract intel from their SUSPECTED terrorist parents? That's right...SUSPECTED. That is what brought me to this blog.

Do we murder an innocent baby for that intel? Where do you draw the line? Just where do YOU draw the line?

This is one of the reasons that I want to die.

The REASON why I'm reading this is that the U.S. Gov't has sanctioned TORTURE of INFANTS.

Somehow a decision was made to TORTURE. So NOW where is the line drawn?
So what IS and ISN'T "acceptable"?
When is "TORTURE LITE" used? (e.g. waterboarding, sleep deprivation, etc.)
When is "EXTREME TORTURE" used? (e.g. Digit removal, eye damage, the TORTURE of INFANTS, etc.)?
Is TORTURE used for SUSPECTED or just KNOWN terrorists?

How do you tell the public that the U.S. Gov't uses tactics formerly used by BRUTAL DICTATORS or DESPOTIC REGIMES? (e.g. Nazi Germany, Stalinist Soviets)

We've crossed a VERY BAD LINE. It's a slippery slope on the other side...going to Hell!!!

As a CHRISTIAN, TORTURE IS MORALLY ABHORRENT, ESPECIALLY TORTURE of BABIES. I'm ASHAMED, DAMNED to be AMERICAN, HUMAN, so I WANT TO, DESERVE TO DIE. Yet others who post have NO MORAL PROBLEM with TORTURE. I can't believe this. THIS IS OFFENSIVE, APPALING!!!