More Mass Murders in Afghanistan

15 March 2012

Got this message from former Marine Tim Lynch, in Afghanistan.  Tim's not always polite, but he's a former infantry officer and I listen to him very closely:

"The Taliban killed 13 women and children today with an IED in Uruzgan and I think they got 8 yesterday - but that's all cool here because they're the Taliban and we're the big fat retarded kid on the block who gets bullied everyday but still shows up to fork over even more lunch money while assuming at some point everyone will like us because we're so xxxxx generous."

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+7 # LTC (Ret)Craig 2012-03-15 15:01
Mike, you know that over 75% of the locals are illiterate and that they do not have a "World View" of matters. They respond to what the local religious leaders tell them. The Imams do not speak out as forcefully for Taliban attacks because they want a theocratic state where they will have power. Every outrage by us is amplified because it fits their ulterior motive. Ridiculing the Taliban does not help their cause so they pretty much don’t comment on these outrages.
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+2 # MrRyden 2012-03-15 20:44
I think you may have the Imams confused with the village elders, who are of more influence in the rural parts of Afghanistan. The village elders are primarily concerned with their own villagers, and to some extent the neighbouring villages. If the Talibans kill one or more of their villagers, they will be just as mad at them as at Americans, Brits, Canadians, etc. However, they will as mentioned look at for their own village and clan. Right now they have suffered under complete Taliban rule for about a decade, and they are not impressed enough by the ANA and ANP to believe that the Taliban rule will not ressurect once the foreign troops leave in just two years, so of course they will start acting nicer and nicer to the Talibans. We may think whatever we want of it, and call them whatever nasty thing that comes to mind, but in the end of the day, they live in Afghanistan for all of their lives, and they will have to deal with the Talibans sooner or later after 2014.
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0 # LTC (Ret)Craig 2012-03-15 20:57
No I really don't have them confused. What you say is true but the specific point I was trying to make is that because of the high Illiteracy rate, what the Imams tell them the Koran says they can’t evaluate. It is similar to Europe before the Reformation. The Pope said go to the mid-East and kill the infidels and they did (The Crusades). Very few could debate the logic or the religious justification for doing this because they could not read Latin nor had access to a Bible to base their argument on. With a 75% or greater illiteracy rate in Afghanistan if the Imam say go kill the infidel what is an illiterate Afghan going to do on Saturday after attending a fire breathing sermon?
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+1 # Education & WealthColin 2012-03-15 21:34
I think you are confusing the desire to improve one's lot via education with progress toward a more secular point of view. As far as I know Islam is a deeply entrenched ideology. In fact, I am unaware of any successful large scale attempts to convert Muslims to another religion.

Also, in my own experience there is little or no connection between education and the ability to think outside one's culture. If anything education appears to obstruct cultural understanding. I have talked to numerous enlisted men who had a much better understanding of the locals than many highly educated journalists writing about the Middle East.
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0 # MrRyden 2012-03-17 01:29
Quoting Craig:
No I really don't have them confused. What you say is true but the specific point I was trying to make is that because of the high Illiteracy rate, what the Imams tell them the Koran says they can’t evaluate. It is similar to Europe before the Reformation. The Pope said go to the mid-East and kill the infidels and they did (The Crusades). Very few could debate the logic or the religious justification for doing this because they could not read Latin nor had access to a Bible to base their argument on. With a 75% or greater illiteracy rate in Afghanistan if the Imam say go kill the infidel what is an illiterate Afghan going to do on Saturday after attending a fire breathing sermon?


Beg my pardon, I completely misunderstood what you meant, and I agree with your statement concerning the disadvantaged position the common Afghan is in if he would like to study the Koran himself. The higher the illiteracy rates are, the more power is channeled towards those who do know how to read, especially in societies and cultures were religion is an important part.
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0 # RE: MrAj 2012-03-15 22:43
Thank you Mr. Ryden for your excellent points and right understanding of the Afghan sensitive culture!
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+8 # AgreeColin 2012-03-15 15:03
Glad to see someone understands what's going on. Now if that would only trickle up...
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-43 # Taliban killed....robin yates 2012-03-15 15:04
Afghanistan was invaded by the USA,Great Britain and others in reply to 911 which had nothing to do with this country. The 911 attackers were all from Saudi Arabia, as was Bin Laden. Eleven years later you got BL but you are still there.The US has no respect for anyone with a brown skin,,, time we all left the Afghans to their way of life
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+17 # Get a clueKen Brown 2012-03-15 16:34
Quoting robin yates:
Afghanistan was invaded by the USA,Great Britain and others in reply to 911 which had nothing to do with this country. The 911 attackers were all from Saudi Arabia, as was Bin Laden. Eleven years later you got BL but you are still there.The US has no respect for anyone with a brown skin,,, time we all left the Afghans to their way of life


YOu f$@#king kidding me dude??!!! The Taliban was raping and pillaging the local population DAILY!!! Yeah, the locals were really enjoying that numb nuts.. They were BASED in Afghanistan, that's not even debatable. Trying to give these cavemen a better way of life, and your dumb as says we have no respect.. In 2000 years these people will still be killing each other. "NO RESPECT" what a fucking joke. Must be tough to hear with your head buried in your ass.
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0 # SFCSoldier at KAF 2012-03-22 12:04
Really dude??? The fact that Bin Laden was in Afghanistan, the planning and training were conducted in Afghanistan, the Taliban refused to hand over Bin Laden, and they were warned that we were coming to get him... That had NOTHING to do with this??? Really??? And we're ONLY here because the Afghans have brown skin??? Really??? Next thing you're going to tell me is that we're here for financial gain... And in case you were wondering, the reason we are still here... It's because we are helping the Afghan people to defend themselves against the unwanted, oppressive, violent rule of the Taliban. They have an elected government.
Holy crap guy... Pull your head out of your 4th point of contact and get amn informed opinion before you post garbage like this.
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+5 # Great imagerysnakeytrickersharlie 2012-03-15 15:09
Great imagery, Tim.
I think that, by now, most literate people see the comparisons between our current war in Afghanistan and that of the Vietnam war from say, 1970 forward. The troops are disgusted and wonder what we are doing in the war. No one wants to be the last to die. The government is corrupt and is getting rich while it can.
But drawing the comparisons is not enough. "History is prologue." Learn the lessons from history and get the hell out of Afghanistan.... today, by the end of the month, or within sixty days. But GET OUT before more of our precious blood is spilled on that cursed land.
We aim to screw the Afghans who have been loyal to us in any event. We might as well do it now and, at least, save some American blood.
Semper fidelis,
Snakey Tricker Charlie
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+6 # Wrong lessonThomas Dodd 2012-03-15 16:52
You seam to have taken the wrong lessons form Vietnam. We didn't fight that one properly. Then we pulled out and left to the Soviets/Chinese to take over.

How many died because we pulled out?
How many fled the tyranny we let take over?
How many died trying to get out?

And this is nothing like Vietnam.
We lost 58,000 men over there.
So far in Afghanistan
Compare with 6800 dead in just over a month on Iwo Jima.120,000 (Allied) at Normandy in a month and a half. 12,000 on D-day alone.
The US lost 3,000 just on Omaha Beach.
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+1 # Which Govt.?sschaloc 2012-03-16 03:58
"The government is corrupt and is getting rich while it can."

You talkin' our govt. or theirs?
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+11 # LTC (Ret)Craig 2012-03-15 15:09
Robin, They were born in Saudi Arabia but were trained and supported from Afghanistan. If we leave Afghanistan we basically abandon 16 million women to 15th century living conditions.
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+2 # No Good Choices ...submandave 2012-03-15 15:25
only the least bad. I'm not 100% for pulling out immediately and get your point about the 16M women, but is it reasonable to base national security strategy on not wanting to see depressing pictures of burka-clad women and child brides in National Geographic? I'd love to see those woman (and all male Afghans, too) have a chance at a bright, peaceful, hopeful future, but is that really what we'll accomplish by what we're doing?

The reality is like Craig said in the first post. In a battle for the hearts and minds with Islam and the local Imams the USA will always loose. If that is the fight we've picked, then maybe we need to take out bat and ball and go home.
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+4 # LTC (Ret)Craig 2012-03-15 15:37
I am as depressed as anyone over how this entire operation is going. I just remember being in Kabul and watching the films of halftime (soccer) executions of women for being raped. They of course did not have two witnesses
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+2 # RE: No Good Choices ...klong 2012-03-15 15:48
they butcher their own women and children, so they have no hearts; They are stone age religous tribes, so they have no minds.

who cares about their hearts and minds?

bring the soldiers home
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-1 # MrRyden 2012-03-15 20:33
Quoting klong:
they butcher their own women and children, so they have no hearts; They are stone age religous tribes, so they have no minds.

who cares about their hearts and minds?

bring the soldiers home


You do see the flaws of that argument? For starters, it's horrible that they butcher their own women and children. Maybe that means they have no hearts (not in the practical term of course), but don't the women and children have that? You're saying that because a man who butchers has no heart, there are no hearts, but what about the ones he butchers?
And of course they have minds. Every single person has a mind, regardless of if he is Karzai, Obama, McChrystal, or even Hitler. Everyone has a mind.
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+2 # RE: No Good Choices ...Thomas Dodd 2012-03-15 17:00
Burkas and child brides? That's the least of their worries from the Taliban.
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0 # Oh, it's yousubmandave 2012-03-15 15:26
Didn't realize I'm quoting the man I'm talking to. My point still applies, though.
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+1 # RE: LTC (Ret)okiquit 2012-03-15 15:51
You can't rescue a woman who doesn't want to be rescued.
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-1 # RE: LTC (Ret)Ron Snyder 2012-03-16 04:01
And why is this MY problem LTC?
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+1 # LTC (Ret)Craig 2012-03-16 10:35
Because a lot of people believed us when we said we would make things better. People "Bet" their lives on what we said. Women are in school after 6th grade, in collages actually and not wearing a head to toe burka. People cut their beards and listen to Rock and Roll. The taliban would pull a Khmer Rouge (Cambodia)if they got back in power. Could you live with tens of thousands of executions? another failed state that will become an even bigger narco state?
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-1 # RE: More Mass Murders in AfghanistanFrank 2012-03-15 15:11
Gee how come a grunt gets it but this dam Administration doesn't? We plan to stay the course until 2014. Voters wake-up! This war is draining us and the Afganistan people could care less about American lives being lost. Micheal, Mexico!!
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+2 # LTC (Ret)Craig 2012-03-15 15:16
snakeytrickersh arlie Yes we said that during Vietnam and we walked away. We threw the South under the bus and basically said Amerian Lives are more important than little yellow people so goodbye. Then the Killing Fields happened and we sat home and felt all superior because we "Ended the War"
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0 # Craigsnakeytrickersharlie 2012-03-15 17:54
Quoting Craig:
snakeytrickercharlie Yes we said that during Vietnam and we walked away. We threw the South under the bus and basically said Amerian Lives are more important than little yellow people so goodbye. Then the Killing Fields happened and we sat home and felt all superior because we "Ended the War"

e did indeed throw those people under the bus. And they were our ALLIES. I certainly don't see Afghanistan as an ally of the United States. At least part of my point, in drawing the comparison to Vietnam, is that WHEN we leave Afghanistan, those who were friendly toward the U.S.A. and its military will be murdered...or, as the Taliban might put it, "reeducated." It is inevitable, no matter when we withdraw.
And, if I may use this space to respond
to Thomas Dodd, I don't quite understand your argument.
Am am curious if you ever served on active duty in our military? Because you don't "seam" to understand the lessons to which I advert. I hope you are not offended, but my commentary has nothing to do with the number of men & women killed in action in any particular campaign or war. It has only to do with our nation's habit, in recent history, of abandoning our friends and allies -- even those forced reluctantly to assume this role -- and the blood bath that ensues after we leave that once-upon-a-tim e ally to the hands of their oppressors. But I don't think you get it.
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0 # LTC (Ret)Craig 2012-03-15 18:12
I agree
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0 # RE: LTC (Ret)FThomas 2012-03-15 18:55
Quoting Craig:
I agree


I too agree sir!
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+3 # RE: CraigThomas Dodd 2012-03-15 18:55
Quoting snakeytrickersharlie:
I don't quite understand your argument.
Am am curious if you ever served on active duty in our military? Because you don't "seam" to understand the lessons to which I advert. I hope you are not offended, but my commentary has nothing to do with the number of men & women killed in action in any particular campaign or war. It has only to do with our nation's habit, in recent history, of abandoning our friends and allies -- even those forced reluctantly to assume this role -- and the blood bath that ensues after we leave that once-upon-a-time ally to the hands of their oppressors. But I don't think you get it.


You said get out now which is what we did then, and look at how many more died because of it.

It irks me to no end when people compare the small loss of men in the current fight to prior wars. There is just no comparison.

I hope to God we don't pull out in 2014. Doing so in Iraq was a mistake and we will pay for it later. Afghanistan will be the same if we pull out anytime soon.

It will degenerate back to what it was in 2000, just as Iraq is doing now.


As for prior service.. Marine Corps.
As of now, I work for the Army (not in), and am currently in Afghanistan.
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0 # MrRyden 2012-03-15 20:27
Compared to the S. Vietnamese, why wouldn't the Afghans be our allies? Because they have a corrupt, un-democratic regime that is of no help to us? Because they have a police force and army that is lacking in all areas, and riddled with enemy sympathisers? That goes for both Afghanistan 2012 and Vietnam 1969. Sure, there are Afghan soldiers who should not be allowed anywhere near a firearm, but there are more of the ones pictured in a BBC article who braved a potential death at the hands of stone throwing locals outside Bagram AFB to save an American flag from being burned.
In COIN, you generally start of with allies that are less than you'd want, because if they'd been as good as you, there wouldn't have been a COIN situation to start with.
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+1 # RE: More Mass Murders in AfghanistanUncleWalty 2012-03-15 15:39
LTC (Ret.), are you referring to Afghans or Americans with this statement:

"...you know that over 75% of the locals are illiterate and that they do not have a "World View" of matters."

I think your comment could easily apply to both. The level of ignorance among most Americans is hard to comprehend.
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+2 # Really? 75%?CPT TJB 2012-03-16 11:11
Quoting UncleWalty:
I think your comment could easily apply to both. The level of ignorance among most Americans is hard to comprehend.


Especially when so many attribute someone's disagreement with them to ignorance rather than consider that there might be valid points to be made in the contrary position.
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0 # CPT TJBMarkM 2012-03-28 19:24
Amen brother. I think we can thank the teachers unions for the decline of American education system.
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+2 # SolutionGamerFromJump 2012-03-15 15:40
Get out. Bomb until pacification. Disallow all immigration out forever. Allow in one shipment of supplies, especially seeds. Disallow any further shipments. Resume bombing for any misbehavior. One way or another, the problem will solve itself. We are not dealing with reasoning beings, it's time to stop acting like it.
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+2 # ops analyst (old)Gene Visco 2012-03-15 15:42
Nitpick, but let's keep the records straight. The Killing Fields were in Cambodia, following their civil war.That's where we were never there [?]
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+3 # LTC (Ret)Craig 2012-03-15 15:54
Yes it was in Cambodia. Sihanouk was over throwon by the non domino communist takeover of Laos/Cambodia and Vietnam. I do not for a minute belive that if we were still involved in SE Asia that we would have allowed that to happen or that with a US/SEATO presence in S Vietnam they would have been able to do what they did.
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+2 # RE: ops analyst (old)okiquit 2012-03-15 15:56
You don't remember our "incursion" into Cambodia in 1970? Or the bombing of the HCM Trail?
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0 # ThinkWilliam 2012-03-15 15:49
Think Elphinstone 1842! :sad:
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0 # LTC (ret)Craig 2012-03-15 15:55
THink the Army of Retribution.... ;-)
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-3 # Failed Afghan InterventionHerrmann Glockler 2012-03-15 15:54
We are in Afghanistan, because our illustrious leader Obama said it was "A War of Need", while Iraq was a "War of choice".
In reality, moving that war against radical Islam into Iraq was a stroke of pure genius, because we could have never killed as many in that mountainous country of Afghanistan.
Obama turned out to be a military idiot, just as in economics.
But the LSM will never report it as such
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+4 # RE: Failed Afghan InterventionUncleWalty 2012-03-15 16:57
I can only assume that you're kidding, since it would be impossible for you to be this ignorant. Do you actually believe that Obama took us into Afghanistan? Have you not followed the outstanding utilization of our special forces during his administration? Unbelievable... .
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-2 # American Naivitymike andrews 2012-03-15 16:16
Another blunder: Moving the guy to Kuwait. Will they never learn???? Afghanistan IS a country. You commit a crime there. You get tried there, military or civilian. Americans were tried in Iraq What's the difference?
I'm a westerner and I spent time in Afghanistan wearing local dreas. Being pushed aside by American service personnel on the sidewalk is the norm! I witneessed APCs being driven down the center of the highway in Kabul the driver montioning everybody to get out the way. It's thanks to America's naivity sending NG to countries they've never heard of that all foreigners working in Afghanistan become targets.
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0 # What's coming?William 2012-03-15 16:25
It's what happened in the autumn of 1842 that I would be concerned about repeating itself. Apparently, the Taliban still talk about that thrashing.
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+1 # LTC (ret)Craig 2012-03-15 16:39
Few, few shall part where many meet,
The snow shall be their winding sheet;
And every turf beneath their feet
Shall be a soldier's sepulcure
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+1 # LTC (Ret)Craig 2012-03-15 16:54
Just make sure you stick with Dr. Brydon... :P
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-3 # Afghanistan is off the rails...Mark b 2012-03-15 16:32
The failures in Afghanistan are due to poor civilian leadership. The military is only doing what the civilian knuckleheads allows them to do. Whether or not we should be there now is a moot point. We are there and we need to finish the mission(whateve r the hell it is)and get our our troops out and let the locals figure out whose side they want to be on. Poor leadership from above has been our undoing in Afghanistan despite the best efforts of our military. What a fricken mess....
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+3 # LTC ( Ret)Craig 2012-03-15 16:46
Leaving failed states does not help. Think of the mess in Somilia. It is going to be a cancer in the horn of Africia and will cost many lives, American, Afirican, UN etc for decades. Pay the cost and get it done or our children will be dealing with the consequences.
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-5 # RE: LTC ( Ret)UncleWalty 2012-03-15 16:59
If you wish to be taken seriously, please learn to spell.
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+1 # RE: RE: LTC ( Ret)Thomas Dodd 2012-03-15 18:13
He only misspelled two words. One, the name of a turd-world country. Give the Colonel a break. He's used to having an orderly to spell check.
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+3 # LTC (Ret)Craig 2012-03-15 18:21
:D No I just get my fingers going too fast and get tounge/finger tied..... Corrected below (better UncleWalty) Not sure what set you off though.

Leaving failed states does not help. Think of the mess in Somalia. It is going to be a cancer in the horn of Africa and will cost many lives, American, African, UN etc for decades. Pay the cost and get it done or our children will be dealing with the consequences
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0 # RE: Afghanistan is off the rails...Colin 2012-03-15 16:51
The problems in Afghanistan are due to the local culture - which isn't about to change. There is no viable mission there and there hasn't been since shortly after Bin Laden left. There is nothing to finish, just to pick the best exit strategy.
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+4 # LTC (Ret)Craig 2012-03-15 17:03
I don't know, I built 7 regional police training academy's, 14 border crossing facilities. Saw the "Ring Road" get built. Saw hydro power restored in saw women in national goverment. I saw people that had left Afghanistan in the 80's return. There is a lot of good going on, it is just not reported becasue is is not "NEWS"
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0 # Well...Colin 2012-03-15 19:01
Craig, I see where you are coming from but most of your references are to technology and not culture. Women in politics is a big change for Afghanistan, but I not enough to warrant the American lives and dollars spent there. Once again, culture is the driving force in this conflict. As such, the main distinction between the current government and the Taliban is how much they hate us not whether they like us.
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+1 # RE: More Mass Murders in AfghanistanFrank 2012-03-15 16:59
Mike Andrews the difference is this soldier may actually be sick from the head injury he received. Lets have the the US Army Medical evaluate him first. He probably has a stellar record and he snapped from head trauma or way too many combat missions. We like to think our Government takes care of their own. But time has proven they do not. Nam comes to mind for some reason..
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+6 # LTC (Ret)Craig 2012-03-15 17:06
I saw UNICEF schoold in places you would never believe and those facilities filled with students who WANTED to learn. A whole generation that wanted to go forward and not back to the 15th century.
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+1 # RE: More Mass Murders in AfghanistanHeywood Jablomi 2012-03-15 18:04
Craig, I wish that I could believe in the things that you describe.

Best regards,

Heywood
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0 # RE: RE: More Mass Murders in AfghanistanMaverick 2012-03-16 03:12
No sir, I "wood" not.
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+4 # Difference between us and themEx 11B in Tx 2012-03-15 18:13
I deeply respect Mr. Lynch - however, I have grown tired of the "look at how bad the Taliban are compared to us and nobody says anything about that" line of thinking.

Of course the Taliban are evil incarnate - thats why we are in AFPAK displacing them from power and ensuring they do not have a safe haven from which to strike us again with their Al Qaeda cohorts. They are unjust and brutal in their treatment of anyone not like minded and whether they are a woman or child makes no difference to them.

What makes us different from them is that we are not that way - we represent the fairest system of government and society known to man kind. We are not the Taliban, so everyone stop comparing our atrocities to theirs. Two wrongs do not make a right!

What this soldier allegedly did is horrific and he should be held to the full extent of the law and the same goes for anyone who may have been a part of it as well. This soldier's alleged actions are not who we are and every one of us has an obligation to make that as clear as we can at every opportunity - and that is not accomplished by pointing to the Taliban's actions and saying they are just as bad or worse so say something to them. That is a 6 year olds way of thinking when they are in trouble - and should not be America's way of thinking or communicating.

We must regain the moral high ground (if possible at this point) or this COIN fight is lost and I remain convinced we cannot afford to lose this fight.
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+3 # RE: More Mass Murders in AfghanistanGeorgiaboy61 2012-03-16 04:21
Re: "Afghanistan was invaded by the USA,Great Britain and others in reply to 911 which had nothing to do with this country. The 911 attackers were all from Saudi Arabia, as was Bin Laden. Eleven years later you got BL but you are still there.time we all left the Afghans to their way of life"

Robin, wake up and smell the coffee... and consider being a bit less of a useful idiot for our enemies. Osama Bin Laden and al-Qaeda were based in the frontier region between Afghanistan and Pakistan, even though they were Saudis. Terrorist networks are mobile, get it?
So drop the barvo sierra that 9-11 had "nothing to do" with Afghanistan. If the Afghans don't want us to invade, maybe they ought to think about keeping terrorists from their midst.

Re: "The US has no respect for anyone with a brown skin..." Oh, the race card... isn't that lovely.... the last resort of the fool who's run out of arguments. Sod off.
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0 # What is next?Grenadier 2012-03-16 04:51
Looks like that COIN thing isn't working out as planned. Teaching opium growers to grow vegetables and brush their teeth doesn't seem productive. Green on blue murders at 200(+-) may only be the start. What about the possibility of green on blue military operations. Suppose the Afghans would rather kill us than permit our orderly departure. Not a pretty picture. 2000 dead, $ billions wasted and the Afghans don't like us and refuse to be saved. I am shocked. Time to leave - sooner is better, now would be best.
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+1 # RE: More Mass Murders in AfghanistanIrebukeu 2012-03-16 13:00
"..... but that's all cool here because they're the Taliban and we're the big fat retarded kid on the block who gets bullied everyday but still shows up to fork over even more lunch money while assuming at some point everyone will like us because we're so xxxxx generous."' Interesting spin on the situation. Tim should know, unless that he IS the big fat retarded kid that he is on the wrong block and that he is the cause of the fighting on "the block". All deaths are blamed on coalition forces because its only because of coalition forces that the Taliban have to fight. Urzugan province was firmly in the hands of the Taliban pre 9-11. The famous 'wedding bombing' of 2002 happened in this province and afghan memory is long.
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0 # RE: More Mass Murders in Afghanistankaren 2012-03-16 20:44
My goodness, TURE, and very well said.
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+1 # Lessons from Gnadenhutten 1782Jack E. Hammond 2012-03-17 08:38
Folks,

Back in 2004 in a letter to USNI Proceedings I sadly predicted all this when a lot of retired Marines were saying the same method used in South Vietnam with small unit of Marines embedded with SV self defense forces was the solution in Afghanistan. I wrote a letter to the editor personally not thinking it would be printed. It was and I think every Marine on earth was mad at me. I made clear that RELIGION (what they call 'DEEM') was all important and unless those Marines were willing to convert all we would be doing is making them targets. Also I stated the US/NATO military think that #1 is weapons, tactics and combat training trumped all. That learning the Afghans and there culture was not even the top ten. And as some Marine commandants have stated book learning is almost impossible to get done unless it is forced with threats.

Now to some comments made about the massacre and the Taliban behavior. This was the same exact excuses given by the American militia men after Gnadenhutten. And I think many American captives at the burning thought about that. It was also the knee jerk reaction of many American veterans organizations like the VFW and AL. But as one member of Calley's court martial board stated to a question about how we have to take into consideration the type of warfare the VC waged: "How many grenades was that baby hiding when it was flung down that well."

For those wanting to prevent the type of murder that happened in Afghanistan read "The Dark and Bloody River" by A. Eckert and look in the index for GNADENHUTTEN. Then re-read some of the comments made on this forum and else where. If US commissioned officers had been forced to study what happened in March 1782 maybe My Lai and what recently happened would not have happened. War in Afghanistan or any Muslim nation still in the 8th century is more than weapons, combat training and combat tactics.

Jack E. Hammond
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0 # Too much P.C. and corruptionChief AF 2012-03-17 23:57
Learn from the past? Whatever
We have screwed this up from the get go
1)our Generals are too political, and kiss the ass of the politicians
2)We negotiating with the Taliban?
3)We left Karzai in power, this guy is a as crooked as Obama
4)We allow Iran to make IED's
5)We put bullshit ROE on our own troops
6)We allow the Afghans to produce drugs
7)We dont fight hard and fierce, kill and destroy and leave, we pussy foot around, spend billions, loose lives and respect
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0 # MrRyden 2012-03-19 01:03
1, Certainly not McChrystal.
2, Not any longer, they decided it's best not to touch the "great satan" with a six-foot stick considering recent events in Afghanistan. That said though, it is generally speaking a good idea to negotiate with the enemy if you intend to leave before you have had enough time to win over him, otherwise you will pretty much have lost the war.
3, What, he used drugs when he was young? Unless Obama has stayed in office despite embarrasingly obvious election fraud that makes Katherine Harris look like a requirement for democracy, has had a brother who was a corrupt drug baron/governmen t official/crime king, and various other things I can't be bothered to mention, it's ridicolous to compare Karzai to Obama.
4, It's either put up with Iran acting like you'd expect them to, or invade Iran. Though considering the very real Iranian IEDs, and the less real Iraqi WMDs, maybe invading Iran would make more sense than invading Iraq, especially considering that they actually might have WMDs?
5, Examples?
6, Yes. The grim truth is that if we didn't, hundreds of thousands of Afghan farmer would loose their livelihood and have to chose between starving, or joining the Talibans.
7, Have you read what Mr Yon wrote during his embedment with TF Spartan?
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0 # RE: More Mass Murders in AfghanistanChief AF 2012-03-19 15:57
Roe example -new rules from interviews with U.S. forces. Among them:

• No night or surprise searches.

• Villagers have to be warned prior to searches.

• ANA or ANP must accompany U.S. units on searches.

• U.S. soldiers may not fire at the enemy unless the enemy is preparing to fire first.

• U.S. forces cannot engage the enemy if civilians are present.

• Only women can search women.

• Troops can fire at an insurgent if they catch him placing an IED but not if insurgents are walking away from an area where explosives have been laid.


Commanders have reportedly ordered a U.S. military unit in Afghanistan to patrol in a manner that could handicap them.
Some soldiers are being ordered to conduct patrols without a round chambered in their weapons, The US Report has learned from an anonymous source at a forward operating base in Afghanistan. Our source was unsure if the order came from his unit or if it affected other units.

On war correspondent Michael Yon's Facebook page, commenters stated that this is a common practice in Iraq, while others said that it is occurring in Afghanistan as well. According to military protocol, "Amber" status requires weapons to have a loaded magazine, but the safety on and no round chambered.

"The idea that any combat unit would conduct any operation, including patrolling and even manning a security post -- in which direct action may-or-may not take place -- and not having weapons loaded, borders on being criminally negligent in my opinion," says Lt. Col. W. Thomas Smith Jr., a recognized expert on terrorism and military/nation al defense issues. "This is nothing more than infusing politically correct restrictions into already overly restrictive rules of engagement. And this PC nonsense is going to get people killed."
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0 # MrRyden 2012-03-20 08:48
No surprise or night searches of Afghan homes is understandable in COIN. Since it's a lot about keeping the civilians friendly, it might be a good idea, though it shouldn't be ruled out completely.

Guess the ANA and ANP could really make use of the training, so why not bring them along for searches? They've only got two years before facing the Talibans on their own.

Generally speaking, the civilians clear off when a firefight is about to commence because they are warned by the Talibans, and they are usually the ones who chose when the shooting starts.

Only letting women search women is a no brainer in Afghanistan. If male soldiers would do it, local support would go away over night in many areas.

Exactly how do you determine that the person who's walking away laid the explosives? If you saw him do it, then why not shoot him at that point?

Patroling without a round chambered is just dumb. It won't reduce civilian casulties, and will just delay the return of fire. (Though, I thought that M16/M4s couldn't switch to "Safe" without a round in the chamber?)
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0 # Goes back to ...Heath 2012-03-27 17:41
Hi Michael, this goes back to my original point with the tablian in the soccer stadiums. If they are going to do that then Tommorrow what are they going to do ? Ban deaf people from schools & not permitted to drive etc. We the deaf community keep a closer eye on the situation and urge our politicians and our military to carry out justice for the tablian & al Qaeda etc. We will continue to pressure Obama & the politicians in Washington DC and " Never Again like the 1940's ".
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